#82 Nurturing Curiosity; AJ and Exploring the Healing Power of Nature

This week on Nonsense in the Chaos, I’m joined by the wonderful AJ... a curious soul walking the delicate line between care, academia, activism and joy. Working within the NHS as a mental health nurse supporting families in a deeply pressured system, AJ brings both compassion and honesty to the conversation.

Currently completing the first two years of her doctorate, with her thesis beginning in September, AJ’s research explores how healthcare staff can help reconnect people with nature, and why that matters so profoundly in a time of climate crisis and collective burnout.

We talk about climate justice, the healing power of the natural world, dancing, festivals, learning, and what it means to celebrate the sheer privilege of being alive amidst the chaos of modern life.

A thoughtful, grounded and quietly inspiring conversation.

Chaos Crusade Links -

Guide on critiquing thoughts and ideas 

https://theconversation.com/how-do-you-know-that-what-you-know-is-true-thats-epistemology-63884

Inspiring more exploration about ways of knowing:

An Ecology of mind - a daughters portrait of Gregory Bateson 

https://youtu.be/PMUUdRmAAbM?si=E977NO0oG_z6ZXRE

Indigenous philosophy - the ethics of philosophy 

https://youtu.be/mfkBmOQhBNM?si=cX_Jh7po-17tHKic

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com 

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

Please consider supporting me through patreon.com/JolieRose and like, follow, and review wherever you get your podcasts from. Share about Nonsense in the Chaos far and wide! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Thank you for all your support -x-

Transcript

0:54

Welcome to the Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host, Joely Rose. I've got an awesome interview for you with my brilliant friend, AJ, who I love and adore. Uh, she's someone that trusts in me and has been on quite a lot of adventures and journeys with me. And yeah, we've done a lot of inner world work together and outer world work together, and it's always a pleasure. She's a fun party girl, um, but also extremely intelligent, very driven. She always makes me feel like I need to up my game in terms of, like, being physically strong and active and fit, 'cause she's so fit and, uh, fit in both meanings of the word. And yeah, she's a, she's a gorgeous friend and I'm really glad that she's in my life. So without any further ado, here is the awesome AJ Excellent. Awesome. So we've got AJ. Hey. Hello, my love. Hi. Um, so whereabouts are you and how do we know each other? And then, yeah, well, just tell me a little bit about who you are and we'll just go from there. Great. Um, so I'm in Buckinghamshire. Um, it, it feels like- quite an average place, honestly. Um, but I live in a village that I've wanted to live in for a long time, and I've only just been able to afford that. Um, so yeah, it feels really, um... I'm really proud of making it here. It took a lot of, a lot of work. Uh, we only moved five miles up the road actually, so it's- we're still really close to where the kids were brought up. Um, but yeah, just in, in the center of a village with, with a lot going on and lots of friends. Um, uh, it's actually, um, in, like the Rothschilds has a property here. Oh, wow. So Odstone Manor. Um, and so that's quite an interesting, um, principle situation for me- Yeah because I think a lot of their practice and a lot of their, their business was, i- is what I'm fighting against now, I would say. Mm-hmm. And, um, yeah, I've got some more interesting things to say about the Rockefellers also. Uh- Mm. Uh, so but we'll probably get onto that. Um, but yeah, so we met, Joely, um, I was visiting my youngest brother, Dan, uh, in Bristol and, um, I was staying over with my kids and we were going for a beatbox championship of some kind. And we had some time before the event, and so we rocked up to one of your workshops. Um- Oh yes, of course. Yeah. And my, my kids were about 8 and 10 at this point. Yeah, that's right. And this was getting to the end of the era when they would come along and do, do things with me. I could just- Yeah lead them there and they would do it. And, um, the workshop was in... I, I... It'd be interesting to talk to them about it now do they remember it, but I think they probably remember me putting them in situations where they were pretty uncomfortable quite a lot of the time. Um, but yeah, so I, I remember meeting you then and, um, realizing that we had the same birth year. Mm-hmm. So, uh, for three months of the year, we're the same age. I think it's something like that. Yeah and, and then from there I started, um, kind of following you on Instagram or Facebook or those sorts of things- Mm and got to hear about the pilgrimage in 2021. Um, uh, actually I was with you, I walked a little bit in 2020, um, because- Yeah, you walked with me when I did it on my own. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Because you were walking through the ridge- you were walking on the ridgeway, which is close to where we live. Yeah. And so, yeah, like- And Tony Blair's estate as well. Tony Blair's estate is near you as well, isn't it? W- very close. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh my gosh. It, yeah, we've run through there before. Um- That's right so I think, yeah, that's Wootton Underwood. I mean, place not matters really- Mm I suppose. But, um, yeah, beautiful places around here in the Chilterns. Um- Yeah because you've also got Chequers not that far from us as well. Yeah. So, um, beautiful countryside not that far from London. So- Mm you're gonna get a lot of, a lot of seats of power, I suppose, in this place. Um- Mm and, and I mean, it's interesting being in Waddesdon because I was brought up near Woodstock- which has Blenheim Palace. So that's where we used, that's where I went to school, um, and where my kids used to have to run around the manor for their PE. Mm-hmm. Uh, I used to have to run around Blenheim Palace lakes for my PE, and I thought it was the worst thing ever at the time. Um- now I truly enjoy it, but that's maturity for you, I suppose. Yeah. Um, yeah. And what's that palace? I don't know that palace, that name. I know Woodstock. So Blenheim Palace. Yeah, so Churchill's home is there. Okay. Like Church- like, there's a massive statue for, to Churchill. Um, he's very closely linked, um, to that area. I think his family were really close to the royals as well from- from what I remember. So yeah, again, a, a, you know, Cotswold stone, fancy kind of places. Yeah. So yeah. And do you know, I, I haven't really moved from... I, I was actually born in Buckinghamshire, moved to Oxfordshire when I was five, and then couldn't afford to live in Oxfordshire anymore, so- moved to, to Bucks as an adult. So I've, I've really stayed so local, like local- Mm to my land, which I hold more dear now. Um- Mm-hmm previously it felt a bit stale, a bit, um- not very adventurous. But now when I think about land and connection to land, makes me, yeah, feel, makes me feel more connected to this place. My, my feet have trod this area a lot, so- yeah, I enjoy it here. And it is beautiful. It is a magical place. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Really is, yeah. And then tell us about what you're up to at the moment, 'cause you're doing a PhD, you're doing research. Yeah. What are you doing at the moment? Yeah. Yeah, so, um, I've, I've had a long career in the NHS as a mental health nurse, and I, I've worked with, uh, teenagers most of the time. Um, and I've realized my kids are adult now, so they're in their 20s, and I, I realized that I had a bit of time on my hands. Um, and I always imagined for myself being a researcher, like later- Mm on in my career when I was no longer able to really sit through difficult conversations and, and manage the inevitable challenge of being with people during their hardest times. Um, and what I imagined I'd be doing was, uh, microbiology or biochemistry, like, um, down a microscope. Mm-hmm. Like, no, no conversation, no, no talking, no interactions. Um, but, uh, it's not that I'm studying that, but I've, I'm actually on a what's called a professional doctorate. And so, um, what that is is, um, a couple of years taught, like how to do research and preparing you to do a research project, and then I'm just finishing that. And then the next three years are, um, cr- like, doing my own primary research, so completing a thesis, essentially, an argument. Um, and that is I was like, "What am I gonna do?" I was gonna do something really close to practice. Um, but in the end... Do you know, I was at Breaking Convention last year, and I was like- Mm "Really, where am I gonna go with this?" So Breaking Convention is, it's not a festival, and I mistake it by calling it that sometimes, but it's a conference of, uh, psychedelic consciousness. And- Mm and I went there with the intention of like where am I gonna go with my research? Uh, because I can ask whatever question I like, and usually with a PhD you are following someone else's funding. So you will, uh, apply to answer someone's question that you think you're qualified to do. Um, hence why shout out to my middle brother, Jamie, like, who has just completed a PhD, actually, in an area related to his expertise, but, like, really it spanded him. Anyway, um- At Breaking Convention, I was asking myself the question, where am I gonna take this research? What am I gonna do? And I had a really beautiful conversation with a psychiatrist actually that I know from my work area, and we were talking about psychedelics and, um, how, how as a medicine they can help us reconnect to the land. And something she said about how children don't need that because they're born connected to the land. Um, and this really convinced me to, to make sure that my research was about nature. Um, during the pilgrimage with you in 2021, I, I, again, I, I had a fantasy of the, the rest of my career being something outside, something to do with nature and, and couldn't really work out a, a plausible way to do it. I had a friend of mine, a really good friend from work, off sick, and it- she was off sick for, I think, may- certainly months, uh, because it was related to her own mental health. And I really was impacted by the distress of her, of- Mm-hmm of being off. That, that almost was as additionally distressing because she was not at work and she was not fulfilling the principles of, of working hard and contributing and, and she, she would've known that her absence would've been felt. It would've been noticed- Mm by the kids she worked with, the families she worked with. Uh, like us, we missed her. Um, and we went walking together while we reconnected. Um, and I was like, actually, I- the population I'm gonna focus on is, is not the young people and families and the children, but the staff. Mm-hmm. Because without us being well, we- we're- we- we can't do our job. We, you know, our service cannot be stable. Um, and, and the implications on, on the people we're supposed to be working with it, i- is massive. So I then combined those two things, okay, nature connection and, um, healthcare staff- Um, and I, I had a, another, uh, like a, a recent point actually where I nearly gave the whole thing up. Mm. I went to a conference, um, a few months ago, probably about four months ago, on the climate crisis. Um, and it was led by Royal College of Psychiatrists, um, or Royal College of Psychiatry. And there, uh, I kid you not, I, I was sat in the audience, like, ugly crying, like face- Mm crap crying with the enormity the devastation, the regret, the guilt- the helplessness, um, about the situation that we are now in. Um, so the, the only way I could justifiably spend three years of my life doing something like this would be to also work for climate justice- and to find a way to incor- incorporate that in my world. So, so at the moment I'm working full time, I'm studying. I'm, I'm, like, dedicated to it. Like, I'm up at 5:00 every morning, sometimes quarter past. But, like, really needing to... I know I need to just do something every day pretty much. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I'm just being really intentional with my time. So it, it's really helped my discipline. Um, one of my pros and one of my cons actually when I was considering to do it was being more sober. Mm-hmm. So I literally... It's a good, it's a good reason to, to focus, to not lose myself. I, I mean, I don't play a musical instrument, so I don't lose myself on my spare time, like, I don't know, strumming a guitar and learning a song. I watch Drag Race for goodness sake, I get subsumed into the TV, and that again is, is so not in my principles. Um- Mm-hmm so this research has given me focus. Um- There's something about the prestige of it as well, I've gotta be honest. Like- Mm-hmm like I, I come from a place, I suppose, of striving, of ambition- and, um, that's a blessing and a curse because it comes actually with some sensitivity and some, um, vulnerability in terms of actually if I'm not working hard, who am I? What am I worth? You know, all, all those bits. So i- it's a really interesting journey. I've got a very difficult job. I've got a very senior job, um, where I'm constantly questioning, uh, my skill and, um, contribution in that area. So where I'm in such a senior place, actually the awareness and the connection to the research around the methods that we use to, to know things, to explore what we, what we understand as knowledge, um, it, it kind of is a, a level of armor in a way. Um- a protection from that kind of sense of low self-worth. So it... Th- and I mean, I did a massive pros and cons, uh, because the other pro was I really wanted to justify... I, I really wanted to, like, role model to my kids- that, um, that study is possible, that to keep learning is- Mm a really helpful and important thing to do. Um, so yeah, all of those reasons. I, I mean, I, I have to say that I wasn't gonna do this until, like, a year ago. D- do you know, I'd ruled it out entirely, and then- Mm a nurse walked past me and she was like, "Have you thought about doing the doctorate?" And I was like, "Well, yeah, I have, but I've got this job now, and it's, you know, it's quite busy, it's quite demanding. Um, so I think I'm okay." She's like, "You should really think about it." Um, and one of, one of the reasons that we're encouraged as nurses to research is we bring a different lens. We bring a different experience, so therefore we're gonna ask different questions. Mm-hmm. And trying to... Like, our medical colleagues they've done incredible research. Our psychology colleagues, incredible contributions to, to our awareness of things, but that's a certain way of seeing and a certain way of doing. Uh, and so from a nursing perspective, most of us probably are, are, are working class- Like probably the majority. Mm-hmm. So, so we, we've got a different social experience, and, um, and our roles as nurses they're, they're so different. Mm. If you think like medical colleagues, a- as psychologists they're really with people for intervention. Mm. Um, where you might be doing something to someone. Like if you're a psychologist, you're doing an intervention a protocol-driven intervention. Um, a doctor, you're going in for your ward rounds, you're like seeing people every six weeks, every six months, that sort of thing. Nurses are all that gap in between. So it's like how to optimize living conditions for humans. Mm. Um, and, and this has really led me into... My research area has led me to appreciate how we're, we've been so human focused that we have forgotten what we really need to be able to live. Mm. So without the planet, we don't have nursing, we don't have anything. Um, and so I've been really struck by all of the professional bodies that I have looked at have declared a climate emergency. The Royal College of Nursing being the one that I'm af- affiliated to. But I don't really see that actioned in my work area. I see it in some places. Mm. I see sustainability focuses within the NHS. There's like big... Like, there's a big attention, there's a big plan, um, to really address the, the carbon emissions and, and reducing those a- as, as quickly as we can. I think we're trying to be zero carbon by 2040. Mm. So it's, it's like earlier than the 2050 that the country is, is, is aiming for. Um, and I'm, I'm asking wh- where is our contribution? Like, thinking about healthcare staff in general, we are... I, this is the case. The, like NHS staff group, the biggest staff group in England. Right. Yeah, right. And- yeah right? So if it's not us, then who- Mm is it gonna be that can really impact the focus on trying to- reconnect ourselves for our own wellbeing, uh, but also really support the connection for the kids, the families- Mm-hmm that we work with. Uh, because, you know, there's a lot of what you learn in research is that there's rarely any certainties. Mm-hmm. Um, and there's so many kind of different variables of a thing that is really difficult to then generally apply it to other areas. So, so really we need to be very thoughtful on that. But the consensus is the climate is warming, the consensus is, uh, is that it, this is human driven by our extraction- Mm-hmm of, from the land. Um, and overall there's a consensus that nat- being out in nature is good for humans. Um, uh, but it just like what, doing what is- Mm gonna really vary. But isn't that the case with everything, right? Yeah. So some people are gonna, like, actually really not have a good time if they're, they're in an allotment space. Yeah. But they might do if they're doing a great big yonk up the hill to go and do a biodiversity count or, or something- Mm like that. So, um, it, it's not that there isn't evidence that these things are really important for our wellbeing, it, it's just the what works for who is- Mm always the tricky thing. Um, so I mean, there's a lot of focus on climate. There's a lot of focus on trying to support us to reconnect to nature, um, not only for our good, but for the good of the planet. And- Mm and that's what's increasingly recognized. Um, you've got two main global, uh, concepts, planetary health and One Health, and, and they've been going since the '90s, One Health. But, uh, like I, I haven't even really heard of it until I'd done research like a couple- Yeah of years ago. Um, and, and so that idea of our health really relying on- on the, the health of the planet it's still really quite a niche understanding. Yeah. Um, so yeah, that's what I'm kind of trying, trying to... I really need to define my question, and it's really tricky to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, but at the moment I think that's what I really want to look at, is that mismatch between, um, policy and practice. Yeah. Uh, we know what the barriers are, and it's like, how can we, how can we work on those? The barriers, probably time. Yeah. Money. Yeah. Uh, it's a privilege, right? To use active travel, to use the bus is a pr- is a time privilege. Yeah. Um, only available for those that don't have to pick up kids halfway through the day or- Yeah um, those that have time if to get to work, or an understanding boss if you don't make it. Uh- Yeah there's so many reasons to put you in the car to- Yeah because it's, it's just so, so much more reliable. Yeah. So yeah. I really do see, I p- I try and pay attention to the privilege I have, um, even not having caring duties, not really. Yeah. But it's the privileged who are the ones creating most of the, the problem, you know, so. Carbon. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's coming from us anyway, so. It, it real- Yeah it really is. Yeah. And, and I suppose if what I imagine if- We love this. Imagining if the, um, the public transport was really well subsidized and it didn't cost £3 a journey like it does now. Mm. It costs 50p. Yeah. I mean- Yeah with the fuel prices, they've rocketed up here. So I c- you wouldn't be able to... You would find a way to- Mm make that bus work if it was a 50p journey, like h- like- Yeah a train journey. Like, you would always choose it if it was cheaper than driving in a car. It would be cheaper. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Absolutely. You would choose that. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, one of the things, Jodi, I keep meaning to do, which I've been too scared to do so far, is you know those electric scooters? Yeah. And I w- not to have my own one, but to, to borrow one, to get the app and then- Yeah jump on one at the bus stop and, like go to work. Oh, my God. Yeah. You would so suit that. You're very good at being active. That's one of your fortes. Yeah. I could totally see you doing that. Yeah, but, like, it's anxiety has stopped me. I'm like, "I don't know. I don- I don't know. Ah." Like, but it doesn't take much, does it- No, sure to, like, actually just- Figure it out kind of jump in. Yeah. Yeah. You need to do it on a leisure day, where you haven't got to be somewhere. You need to do it on a- Yeah on a relaxed day. Yeah. You just do it for a bit of fun and just get the hang of it. Yeah. And then you'll be able to do it. And you will love it. Yeah. You'd love that. I could totally see you loving that. That would be amazing. Oh, yeah. Oh. Definitely. Yeah. So you are right in the thick of it at the moment and, yeah. Yeah. And so tell me about the Rothschild stuff then, who's around you. What's- Right. what I've got to say about this, uh, like, because I'm really interested in, um, the o- oil industry and why- Mm it is, um... it, it's- It, it's a public health crisis, right? Mm-hmm. The climate crisis. It's a public health crisis, um, because people are gonna get sicker and sicker, need more and more care and support, and they already need so much that we can't do it, can't do it. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, um, what was really interesting during the conference at the Royal College of Psychiatry, they had a public health expert there. Mm. And they related, um, the oil industry to, um... I don't think it was just Nestle. Was it just Nestle that, um, create, that, um, with the milk formula? Yeah, I think it was Nestle. But- They're the famous ones. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so o- they gave it for free to women in, in countries where there were, there was not the sanitation available to do, um, like easy sterilization. Um, but they used this method of feed- feeding, so much so that their breast milk dried up. Dried up. And so- Yeah yeah. So therefore you had a, a massive crisis essentially. So they the, in the conference they spoke about Nestle, and they also spoke about the tobacco industry. Mm. And, and they spoke about those two because both of those bodies, tobacco and baby milk, both of those industries try to be part of the policy making. Right. So they, they said, um, w- well, one, one, um, one technique used was, um, s- uh, sowing seeds of doubt. Mm-hmm. So not denying it, not saying, "Oh no this isn't an issue. These, um, these cigarettes, uh, I mean, they might be really damaging, but we don't know. Not really." Yeah, we don't know for sure. Um, and we don't know for sure, right? Yeah. So this was an actual, apparently, a marketing technique- Yeah to be able to continue to promote this stuff. I'm just gonna plug my plug in. Yeah, go for it. And so what's interesting to me is the fact that, um, the Rothschilds, uh, do a lot of charitable work. Great, really glad they do that. They really do a lot of, um, support for, for various different, um, organizations around. Um, but I suppose one of the things that was interesting to me was, um, one of the main papers that really, um, i- is, is studying climate change is The Lancet, which is a really well-respected medical journal. Mm-hmm. And, um, there's a version of The Lancet called The Lancet Countdown, right? So that's a countdown in terms of climate change and us needing to do something about it. Now, the thing that's interested to, interesting to me is that the Rockefellers are... their name is at the top of that title. Mm. So the Rockefellers Lancet Countdown. Um, and I, I've looked into it and, and they've said because Rockefellers gained a lot of money from the oil industry, that's where they've got all of their fortune from. And, um, it just makes me, it makes me critical, it sets off my critical idea about having, um, an industry like the oil industry or someone that's re- made a lot of money from it involved in climate science- Yeah in just, like climate justice. Yeah. So m- may- maybe this is really truly innocent, but it also seems very similar to what has happened with the Nestle company, what happened to the tobacco company. They got into policy, they got into the research, the academic- Mm a- arenas where all of this stuff is being explored. So, um, I just think it's interesting. Um- Mm and I, I really respect the work coming out of The Lancet Countdown. Like, it really- Mm seems the most plausible, but I'm also aware of my bias, and that I- Yeah I really believe it to be true, and I- I really am convinced by the evidence in regard to, to climate- But I feel uncomfortable seeing- Yeah Rockefeller's at the top of that yeah, exactly. Um, and yeah it's a thing I, it's a thing I would like to explore more- Yeah with people that, that know about it to- Yeah um, understand. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause it's, um, at, at best, it's greenwashing. Um, which at least it means they're admitting there's a problem, and I think we're a bit further along the line now, aren't we? I mean- Yeah you know, in 2021 when we did the pilgrimage, it was when we were sort of going, well, yeah, but greenwashing is at least that they're admitting there's a problem, whereas I think now other than people just outright going, okay, it's not, like Reform or Trump or whoever who are just- Yeah clearly just making it up. Yeah. I think, like- Yeah most people now are like, yeah, no, there definitely is something going on. We're all boiling- Yeah for a start. Um- Yeah you know, I, I don't think we can really deny it now except for if you're just gonna completely outright lie, but apparently you can do that nowadays. Um- Yeah but, uh, yeah, either they're just greenwashing or, like you say, they're having a bit more involvement in the research avenues or, you know, like if certain findings didn't suit them, would they be published? You know, that kind of thing. Then you're starting to go- Yeah well, actually, are you impacting the research? Um- Yeah, it is all very questionable. Yeah. So I just looked it up and, and The Lancet Countdown started in 2016. Mm-hmm. Um, and I And you're right, I think we have really moved on, I would say even the last couple of years. Yeah. It's, it's, um, the last couple of years- Well, the amount of catastrophe that's been happening around the world- Yeah like it's clearly- Yeah begun. Yeah, yeah. You know, the impact of our, our behavior has started to be visible. Um- Yeah no one can deny that now. And I think we can see- Yeah it's a bit of a runaway train, and I, I mean, I don't know how we're gonna You know, I, I just think strap in and we're just gonna have to see what happens now- Mm unfortunately, and that's not what we should have done, but And obviously we'll do everything we can. Everyone has to work as hard as they can in their directions of trying to push against it. Uh, and, you know, for me, it's trying to instill hope. Like, that's, that's what my role is, is to try and keep- Mm finding ways to find hope within this situation. Um, of which there is much. Like, um, I've even had, like, Facebook posts come up recently where, um, I said, "Oh, we've only got, um, seven years of bananas left before we won't have bananas anymore," but that was 10 years ago. Yeah, yeah. So I'm like we've still got bananas." Yeah. Yeah. So you know, there, there are things that I'm seeing that it's well, this is all gonna take a bit longer than we thought- Yeah or maybe the reason why we've got bananas is 'cause we did change what we were doing. Yeah, yeah. You know, maybe something shifted. Um, the thing that does mainly give me hope is the, the thing that I'm always saying to you at ceremonies is- Mm the turning into steam, you know? 'Cause what that actually means is that our inventions are doubling. Then so if you take the gaps between the first ever invention and the second invention, say, the first invention being an, an ax head and the second invention being a, an arrow, you know, and, and h- how m- how much time, we're talking thousands of years between some of these, the earliest inventions, and now it's doubling exponentially. Like, we're just churning stuff out constantly, and those inventions include fungus that's eating plastic or, you know, ways of clearing up oil or ways of- Mm creating energy that are green. You know, all of these things are happening- Mm exponentially now, along with memory storage, so we haven't, we're not losing anything along the wayside. Like, you know, we're keeping all of this information that we're go- gleaning. So- things are, and there's more people than there's ever been before. So all of that is us turning into a state of steam, and who knows what that means. You know, there's so many possibilities within that. So even if they're doing X, Y, and Z over there, and the propaganda that they're spreading is this over here, they're, you can't create a narrative like you did with, the Nazis or, uh, any other point in history. You can't just drop some flyers and say, "This is the way things are," and everyone will believe you. You might have a section of the population that will believe you, but not everybody's gonna believe you. Um, and that other population that you're not hooking in have got a whole connection across the world, you know? So there's, there's so many variables that are there. Um- It's interesting. I just feel like it's all to play for, and so that gives me hope because I d- Mm I don't think we can say anything's clear anymore. You know, nothing's sewn up, so... And we don't really know what's gonna happen to the planet. We don't actually know. Um, so we have to just keep... You know, we might get hit by an ice age, or we might get hit by a solar flare, or, you know. Mm. It's like- Mm there's, there are so lots of things that might happen but we have to go with the evidence, and we have to... and part of the thing with connecting with nature is the more you know about nature, the more you spend time in nature and feel the benefits and feel that connection and feel the love and the two-way relationship, when, when that becomes sentient, when it becomes a sentient relationship, you will do anything for it. Mm. Because it's doing everything for you, you know? Mm-hmm. And so that for me is a, is the way of, um, you know, I would, I would just, I would do anything now for Mother Nature. Like, and I didn't feel like that 10 years ago. I liked nature. I really loved it. I knew it was a, an important thing to me. But the journey I've been in the last two years and, and all that it's done for me, the, all she's done for me is- Mm so extraordinary and keeps unfolding, and is like... And it's not even easy. It's not like she's doing everything like some benevolent fairy godmother- Mm sprinkling dust over me. She makes me fucking work for it. Mm. She puts me through huge ordeals and physical, mental, huge, huge things that I go through, but all of it is improving me. All of it is making me stronger, higher, f- you know, higher frequency, more happy, more stable in my actual physical life. Like, just things keep evolving. She evolves me. And- Mm and I would do anything for her, and thanks for what she's done for me, yeah. Um, and I'm so excited about where it's still to go, you know? She is- Mm literally the lover that keeps on giving. There is no- Mm "Oh, she's got bored now and moved on." Like, it's just continuous. But until people engage in a way that's deeply meaningful... And, and really, again, like you said, that comes from the privilege of spending time with her. Mm. I think, like, with the pilgrimages, when people say, "Oh, could I just dip in and out and come for a week?" I'm like, "You won't get the same from it unless you do- Mm five, six, seven weeks." Once you've been fully immersed in nature for five... I'd, I'd say it's five weeks is kind of the transition point where you are no longer- You don't know where you are anymore. You're in nature world. And once you're in that world- Mm you can't understand why anyone would choose to leave it. It's like- Yeah "Oh, sorry, have I gotta go back to-" Yeah catching the bus at 8:00 in the morning and- Mm-hmm you know, sitting in a sweaty office with some air conditioning- Mm getting a cold when I'm fully immersed in Kairos, you know- Yeah magical time and, and I'm- Mm I'm t- you know, listening to the roe deer bark at me at night a- across a silent uh, expanse of land that's completely at peace. There is no war or conflict here. There's all sorts- Mm of fucking violence and shit going on, but it's- Mm it's all doing its thing, and it's harmonious. Mm. And in this place, everything's as it should be, and now I'm, like, choosing to go to this other place where it's all a f- absolute shit show. And you're, you're, "Okay, I'll get back, I'll get back on that train, shall I?" Yeah. And it just seems like insanity. Yeah. And you can feel that it's physically bad for you, and every, every aspect of your being is not, uh, being improved by getting back on that train. Mm-hmm. But that's the train we're on. And it just, yeah, seems like insanity. Yeah. Well, I was just gonna s- Should we pull some cards? Yes. Should we pull some cards? Yeah, yeah, let's. If you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting me on Patreon, which is patreon.com/julierose. I have a couple of tiers on there. One is £3 a month, which is like you buying me a cup of coffee, although I think coffee's more expensive than £3 a month now. Um, but it's buy me a coffee once a month to say thank you and just, you know, I appreciate what you're doing, which I very much appreciate receiving. And then if you are able to afford the £9 a month means you get the videos and a bit of extra, uh, um, benefits. For example, you'll get money off for doing the Witchful You course, which I run annually. And we will be beginning the, the round this year on the 15th of June with the Gemini dark moon. So we work with the Gemini energy, um, which is twins. So the twins are our inner and outer world, and, uh, harnessing that energy, we then do a month cycle where you'll get a love bundle through the, um, email post every week with prompts and ideas and creative, uh, exercises to do as inspiration to help you to discover your archetype. Um, AJ actually did the course with me many years ago. She, uh, explored how she's a warrior, so that's her archetype as the warrior. Um, like Ar- uh, Artemis, um, you know, wild, strong women, and it's, it's great. You know, I've, I've seen how much AJ's used it. She refers to it in our conversation. It's part of her life now, just as it's part of my life to know that I'm Aphrodite or, um, Ing, the masculine fertility god, and that these are my... They are my archetypes, and that I am able therefore to give myself permission to be and do all the things that my archas- archetype does. Like, it, it just, it makes it, life a bit more focused and gives me much, um, uh, greater clarity around what I have permission in myself to do, what I give myself permission to do and be, and I love it. I absolutely love it. I enjoy doing it every year. I get something out of it every year. If you've done it before, you could do it again. It's powerful every time you do it. So I, uh, would highly recommend it, and if you are one of the higher tier supporters on Patreon, then you will get a reduction in the price. So if you want to know more, email me on nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com, or you can follow me at kriyaarts, K-R-I-Y-A-A-R-T-S, on Instagram, and there'll be the advert there with more information on the course. So thank you so much for being here. If you can't afford to support me, that's no problem. Just tell people about it. Word of mouth's amazing. It makes such a difference. So I love you being here. Thank you so much. Now on with the show See what the universe wants us to talk about. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause I could talk to you forever. Yeah. As we often do. Yeah. Excellent. Okay. There might be a bit of a lag. Yes. Just... So I'll hold it up, and also- I love doing this, by the way. Yeah. It's all really c- Yeah, it's so good. We care about- I, I- the same things, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'd had, I think, what had I... Something, I, I was at an event, and then I read an email that really made me mad, talking about being on the train. Yeah. And then as, um, as I left, I got your voice message about joining you on the podcast. It lifted everything. Aw. It was so nice. Good. Yeah, it's so good. I love it. Um, excuse my weird gammy hand. I burnt myself today, so I've got this- Oh, no this, uh, thing. Yeah, I poured- Yeah scalding food fresh out the microwave all over my wrist, and so I've got like a- Uh-oh a burnt wrist. But, um- Yeah so I'll try and... 'Cause I've gotta kind of balance this thing on me. So you tell me when to stop. Well, how about I... Can I have card number seven from the top? Card number seven from the top. Yeah. That's an easy way of doing it. Right, and I've done that before. One, two, three, four. Ooh, five, six, seven. What are we? The Hermit. Okay, that's really cool. Yes. So the Hermit, um, especially in this one, he's got, um, a sperm and an egg. Okay. Uh, so it is about... And then there's this spark that's shining and lighting up the whole card. So, and but it's also got the, the dogs of, um, Hades, so you've got the death there. So it's... The way I read this card is you've got the whole of life, but we're a spark. You know, we were born with this spark that we are here to look after and protect and nurture. And it's a bit like, um, again, there's an element of privilege with this, but that thing of, like, we choose to be here. We've chosen... The spark is the bit that's infinite- Mm and it's come down, and it's chosen this life, and it's chosen this mortal form to have this experience. And you can live your life where, you know, when we're talking about the train, you can kind of not end up looking after that spark very well and really pushing it into shapes it doesn't wanna be in. Um, and so for me, it's about, like, how as a parent of that spark, as me as the being that I'm here as, Jolie, being the avatar that was... got this spark that's keeping me alive, how can I parent that so that it's not, um, contorted and allowed to be the plant- Yes that it wants to be. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I want it to be free. I don't wanna be, like, forcing it into shapes it doesn't wanna be in. Mm. And also, the Hermit also, I think, is very much the pilgrim, because- Mm um, I think the Fool and the Hermit are the two archetypes of the pilgrim, 'cause you're doing the inner work, but you're also trusting the unknown. So it's that sort of, uh, pilgrim journey as well. So what- S- what comes up when I talk about any of that for you? Yeah. So, um, I, I have just been at a festival called Soul Revolution. Mm-hmm. And, um, it gave... it, it happened, this weekend happened after l- like, a fairly consistent and challenging journey at work and, like, in regard to the spark. I really not know where my spark is or what it's worth, those bits. And, um, what I have spent the weekend doing is really considering my connection to this broad world and, um, connecting to this, this image of almost like a golden version of myself. Um, and- May- maybe like an avatar but certainly like warrior. Mm-hmm. Um, and it... that's what it speaks to me about really is it's so, so easy to, to put the spark out or to- Mm-hmm hide the spark or to, um, forget the spark is there. Mm-hmm. Um, and so really the Hermit, and I love the Fool as well. The Fool is- Mm like, like was my archetype really for this, for this research journey, kind of just diving in. Um, so, so with Hermit, pilgrim, journey, really having keeping faith. Like, yes, work hard, but- pay attention to what you believe. Mm. Like be, be cautious- What you really care about about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I've been doing some, like, the work I've got to do at the moment for the research is, um, exploring my philosophical underpinnings. So what are the kind of, um, or what are my lenses really. Um, and so- One of the, um, one of the things I've been looking at is, like, the ethics of reciprocity. Mm-hmm. Uh, like, the, those practices from, from groups of people, cultures, tribes, that's still really connected to nature and what it means to, to rely on the land and- Mm and to need to give back as, as you take what you need, and only what you need. So, um, yeah, Hermit is representing that for me, that spark. Um, what about Hades, dog? What... Like, burning. So that could burn off all that other stuff, please. That'd be great. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's also, like, life is short. Yeah. You know? We, we don't- So short. It's so short, and it's such a privilege to grow old. Mm-hmm. And for us to be, you know, just to have been on... What an adventure, and that's what I always- Yeah get from pilgrimage. For me, the pilgrimage is about me reconnecting and re- uh, remembering how lucky I am to have a body. Yes, it stinks. Yes, it's in pain. Yes, I've just slept in a bush for seven weeks and, and had all sorts of weird experiences. I've pushed myself completely out of my comfort zone, and what a privilege and a joy it was to do so. Mm. Yeah. Because I also had such incredible euphoric moments and experiences, and miracles, like, nonstop all the time, that you just- Mm kind of get used to them. They become like normal. And then- Mm the views and the, the moments of just flabbergasting divine beauty that you have experienced. So it's like, it's the best of times, it's the worst of times, but all of it is life. And I think- Mm when you just, like, are chugging along doing a nine-to-five and going to the pub on a Friday and ne- anesthetizing yourself over the weekend, and you're just doing that for 30 years, you're not... You're, you're doing your little spark a disservice in that you're- Yeah not giving it that space to just, like, what a mad thing it is to be alive, you know? Mm-hmm. It's just, it's an, it's an extraordinary miracle. And who knows- Yeah what happens when you're gone? Like- Yeah this is it. This is it. We're here. Have this life, enjoy this life, and, and make the most of it. That's- Mm yeah, for me, it's just such a, a, a privilege. It's- Mm more than any other privilege. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I- I would rather be having an adventure than be rich, I would, I'd rather be, like, slumming it in some mad, crazy situation than, you know, in a Lamborghini. Yeah. Yeah. Living in a- Yeah, def- grey beige house, you know? Yeah, def- yeah, definitely that. Um, it's, yeah... So that's a nice inspiration actually for- Um, for knowing the spark is always there. Yeah. 'Cause in my center I, I know that. Um, and like you say, the privilege that we have for this life, for this skin tone- Yeah for this, living in peace time. Yeah. Girl Yeah We- we've really- We're lucky Yeah We lucked out Haven't we? Yeah. Other than being male. Yes. We've got, we've got a slightly harder setting by being female, but yeah- Yeah we're still basically on the second- Yeah hardest setting, yeah. Yeah, second hardest. I mean, I, I always kinda liked to think I was a bit gay, but I don't think I am. Yeah. Not really. But y- not enough to- have had to have like really gone through the- Yeah, yeah the horror of it all. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm the same. And not to... Yeah, I mean, it's easy to think that, isn't it? And then- Yeah like you say, like, like living in a different way is yeah, so much. So, um, being able to study, being able to do that higher order thinking, having those foundations really strong to be able to do that. Yeah. Hermit. Yeah. I would like you to send me a photo of that card. Oh, I will. I will definitely will. Yeah, yeah. Great. Okay. Did you wanna do another number or a way of splitting the deck? Um, I- If you do well, I- I'll go 49, please. 49. Yeah. You should've- That's quite a camp answer 69'd. I should have done 69. But I'm not Terry. I would have done 69. Well, we can save that for later, can't we? Yeah. The, the extras of the podcast. Okay. Um- So I'm up to 20. Yeah. 20. What is it? There's a 20. Do you know- Oh I know you're still counting, but one of my favorite skills, so I t- I talk to kids about, about various things of like ways to be able to, uh, give themselves a break from their thinking, so- Yeah and one of the favorite ones that really puzzles a lot of people and it really works is, um, counting backwards from 1,000 in sevens. Ooh. Um, and so, uh, yeah, like people are like literally sticking their tongue out. It's such an effort. So I'm like, yeah, this is a good, this is good, this is hard enough for you, so. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And- I do, um, when I can't sleep and my brain's starting to do the whole beating yourself up and running through all the things- Yeah is I do alphabet. Right But I did it for a while where I was like, vegetables, fruits, and I did all the things that I could think of- Sure and I did it so many times that I got bored of doing it. But, and then like it's people I've seen that day, but it also counts if we've just talked about them or like I definitely thought about them. Oh, right. Um, or, and then like things behind the bar or like just actual things, like what was in the tent- Yeah or in the garden. 'Cause also it makes me then be really, um, mindful about like- what, you know, even if it's just s- outside in the garden on the patio, actually there's a, there's an alphabet's worth of stuff there- Yeah but you just have to- Yeah get really into the detail- Yeah for it. Um- Yeah and I really love doing it 'cause it, and it always makes me fall asleep. I always fall asleep again. I might have to do a few alphabets, but Yeah. Oh, wow I'll get back to sleep again. A- and you can, like, re- like really, um, rest yourself from, from, um, middle of the night thinking. Yeah. Exactly. Because p- it doesn't feel the same in the morning. No. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I love that. Exactly. You'll literally- Yeah spend the whole night going, "Oh, I've got to do this, I've got to do that," and the next day you don't do any of it. You're just like- It wasn't that important "I so have to do all of these things," and then the next day you're like- Yeah "Ah, no, I'm gonna go to the shop." Yeah. Yeah. It's ridiculous. Yeah. Okay. So this is, um, the nine of disks, and it's gain. Um, which actually I don't pull this very often. I don't know this card very well. Oh, yeah. So- Love it it's the nine of disks, and it's gain. So what does gain mean to you? What's gaining? to gain something Um What does that mean to you? It, it's, it's probably, uh, a knowledge thing. Mm-hmm. Um, and it can relate to the spark for me. So, uh, it, it's really interesting being in a place where I feel like I know less. Mm-hmm. So being at the festival just recently, like, it was, like, uh, it was just very, um, a certain vibe, like a certain, like, uniform, if you like. Mm-hmm. Headscarves and earth colors and, and all- Yes, I know the, I know the one. And so I was there with my green Adidas top and my big pink trousers and, um, and, and really paying atten- wishing I had all the, like, earth-colored things. Yeah. But then also going, actually what it is to be different and what it is- Yeah to, to be not buying new things- Yeah for one- Yeah to be able to fit in with a, a certain crowd. Um, and so it's like- I feel like we really gained something from being working class, um, Adidas-wearing townies as well. Like- Yes I, I, I, I love that whole world, I love that scene- Yeah but it is part of my, um... You know, it feels very privileged, it feels very middle class. Um, and it feels like it's got its own evangelical-ness to it, and it was what came up for us on the pilgrimage- Mm-hmm where we were like, "Why is everyone doing this, like, very serious voice of I call in the wind, and this is how I call in the wind?" And then when Helen stepped forward and fooled with it and was like, "I don't know what I'm doing. What am I doing? Is this the right way to do it? I'm not sure if this is the way we're meant to do it. Who's he to call in the wind? How does he know what the wind is like?" And it was so much fun because we suddenly- Yeah broke the convention of- Yeah of how to do ceremony and how to- Yeah be a wafty hippie. And- Mm-hmm. And it was... And we challenged them, and I loved that. And it made me- Yeah. realize that I had permission to be me in amongst- Mm-hmm all of it. You know, and that's why wear the LOM clothes and do- Mm everything in these brightly colored clothes, 'cause I'm not gonna be earthy-wearing. I'm not earthy-wearing. That's not my vibe. Yeah, yeah. And I have just as much right to exist within this. And, and- Yeah and lo and behold, I don't get asked to, you know, talk at Medicine Festival or anything. You know, I- Well, until now. Well, until the- they're like, "We need to diversify. Why didn't we think of this before?" It's so funny. I just You know, and it's fine. It's like that's I, I will dip into that world, and I love it when I do. Yeah. And I always love- Yeah how amazing and talented and, and insightful- Yeah and inspiring everybody at, are at these things. But I also am glad you were in your Adidas outfit. And if I saw you there- Yeah you'd be the person I'd wanna talk to. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, by the end of the weekend, uh, I'd, I'd lost the bra. Of course. Yeah. Um, and, um, we were, me and Becks, my sister, we were, um, volunteering at a kids', a tent. So that's where we were. We were, like, helping the kids' area. And, um, and she bought loads of rags from the scrap store- Mm-hmm 'cause we were doing, like, gratitude wands or something wafty like that. Mm-hmm. And in there was this, like, um, top made out of scrap material. And I was like, "Oh, I'll try that on." And so then I wore that for the rest of the weekend. Brilliant. Um, like, like a girl who was l- beautiful, wafty, earth colors, b- uh, feather in her hair, all that. And she was like, "Do you know, I've noticed your vibe. Like, I And I love it. Like, it's very eight- Aw it's very '80s." And I was like s- like I was like, "Oh, it's the hair." And then afterwards I'm like, "No, it's, it's everything." I, I can't help it. It's all the patterns I, I choose. It's- Yeah yeah, it's just very that. So. Yeah. Um, yeah. Was, uh, um, and the other, the game, um, to saying yes to things. Mm. So I had a, an exper- and it was, like, my, my experience, uh, on the last full day of the festival. So, uh, that was on the bank holiday Monday, so it's lovely. It was really long. Um, and I- had had a difficult night, I think. No a, an okay night, but still I was in, I needed... I w- I was funky. I was smelly. Mm-hmm. So I was like, "Well, I'm gonna go to the sauna, um, naked." Mm-hmm. So I was in the sauna naked, like, feeling great about that. I'm happy to fit in with that crowd. Mm-hmm. Um, and then as I, as I go- as I left that area, you kind of had to dip down a little bit to get out. Mm-hmm. And as I lifted up, I caught the eye contact with this, w- from a, um, a Sikh- Mm-hmm leader. Mm-hmm. Um, and I don't know much about their ceremony or their services or even... I, I, I really want to look it up and, and just be more informed. But I've, I walked along with him. I, he, I, I kind of got swept. I said yes to him- Mm-hmm and we walked up to his tent where they were, um, they had a ceremony, a kirtan ceremony. Mm-hmm. So I think that's a certain prayer, certain- Mm-hmm um, worship. And, um- Were you still naked? Not naked, no. Okay. I'd got dressed. Like you just walked up naked- Damn with him for a ceremony. Damn it. I, I always miss out these really important bits of... That's brilliant. So yeah, I'd got dressed because no nakedness on the site 'cause of the kids, right? Right. Yeah, right. So it, yeah, you had to be dressed in public. Um, and, um, before going into that, um, as we were walking along, he said, "Oh, I saw such joy in your eyes." And then later on he's like, "And I can see such pain." Um, and then just being seen for my pain- I just stopped, and I just hugged him. Mm-hmm. And he, we hugged for, I don't know, a minute, two minutes while he kind of did a chanting prayer. Mm-hmm. Uh, I was crying. And then we eventually kind of separated, and he led me into the, the ceremony, the kirtan. Um, and there I sat and- with this devotional music for the, for the first time in my life Mm-hmm Uh, and yeah. See, like I saw him later on in, in the festival and like process- processing all of those things in the day. Um, and I looked him in the eyes and, and, and actually he was hugging me. We were hugging again, and he was doing the prayer. And, uh, and Bex was with me at the time, and two other people were with the guy that I was hugging. Mm. And I heard Bex say, "Oh, hello." Like it was a bit awkward- for her. Um, and it made me laugh. Um, and then we finished our hug and prayer, uh, and then he looked me in the eyes and he said, "You've changed." Oh. "Something in you has changed." And I was like I'm gonna take that." Yeah. Yeah. Because- That's lovely yeah, he helped change me- Yeah uh, in that moment. And, uh, i- at, at festivals like this, there's just something about h- how having helped to cross the threshold- to these new spaces. Mm-hmm. It, it, um, it's a wonderful thing just to be able to walk in, but it's also very overwhelming. There's so many things- Mm available. And so to be, go with the flow and the invitation- That I think is the way to do it. And that's what I do- Yeah and that's with life. And I just- Yeah and it never stops. I'll forget about it sometimes, and I'll be like banging my head against a brick wall and then it's just like, I just, just say yes to what the world is doing for you, in front of you. And, um, and I know pe- like I'm trying to get this across to a friend of mine at the moment who's 21, oh, she's probably 24 now. I think she's 24 now. Um, and she's like, "But how do I know? How do I trust the universe?" And I'm like going through the scenarios that she's talked through, and I'm like, "So at that moment, you did say yes. That's something you said yes to, and you've experienced this, and now it's up to you to find a meaning in that." Like- Mm-hmm and, and that's the only control you have. You can't control what happens. You've gotta just accept the fact that the life and the universe is chaos. And therefore, you might as well- kind of follow a thread and it's, you know, it's not like it, it's necessarily anything more than just a choice. There might be some divine thing going on. There might be more to it than that. Who knows? And we'll never know. But it's too much otherwise. There's too many options. There's too much going on, and also you can get fixated on an idea that isn't happening. It's a bit like making a birth plan. The one thing you know for sure is you're not gonna get the birth plan. Like, like the one thing- You're gonna get the baby, hopefully you're gonna get a baby, hopefully. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the, the birth plan you've written down- Yeah is definitely not gonna happen. Yeah. So, and that's the same with life. Mm-hmm. Your six year plan is not ever gonna turn out exactly- Mm how you imagine it. It might roughly. You might say, "I wanna be a teacher," and you get your- Mm teaching certificate, but who knows what's happened along the way, that someone's died or, you know, you've realized you hate education or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. There's gonna be a whole journey that goes with that. Mm-hmm. And we can be so fixated on this idea that we lose sight of the fact that next to us is a, an amazing option or a, an amazing offer that we're- Mm not paying any attention to because we're too busy going, "Oh, no, but my six-year plan is this," or, "I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do." It's like, well, just follow the, the- Mm the offers. And that's what life is, it's an improvisation and in improvisation in theater you say yes to the offer. Doesn't mean you sleep with everyone who asks you to sleep with them, but like how often do people- You could. You could. I mean, how, how often does it actually happen? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, you know- Yeah have some discernment for sure, but like- Yeah you know, if, if the universe makes an offer then nine times out of 10 say yes to it, you know? Let's do another card. say another number Um, 69. 69. I don't know how many cards there are in a tarot deck. I don't know if there are 69. Uh, how many are there? 'Cause then I could work backwards. Sometimes I thought 60, but I don't know where I've got that number from. I think 60. I think, yeah, I'm gonna Google it. Yeah. How many? How many? 'Cause then I can work out- Um, I'll let you choose, actually. Okay. Yeah, all right. I, I, I grabbed that 69. You choose one. Yeah. Okay, I'll just... I'm gonna... What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna split the deck. There you go. I split it there. Yeah, yeah. Ah, there you go. It's the moon. Um- Yeah so the moon, you have, uh, a ibis, the jackal Egyptian god. Let's try and get that so it's coming to view. Yeah. That's better. And then you've got the moon in the middle. Um- Mm-hmm and it's like two towers that you're passing through, and it's got a kind of vaginal... it's, it's like an initiation. It is a threshold that you're crossing. Yeah. And you've got the jackal, and you've got the scarab beetle. And the scarab beetle's a dung beetle, and it pushes a ball of dung along, um, in the darkness, but it still follows the line of the sun, and we don't know how it does that. So that's why the Egyptians worshiped it, was because even in darkness it knew where the sun was. Um, and so it's about the moon in terms of the journey of the tarot. It's the last challenge before you get the fool. Sorry, I've gone all out of focus. It's the last challenge before you get the fool, and that is, um, uh, the last dark night of the soul before you really fully let go, surrender, capitulate and really, you know, uh, let... Be- become the fool, so give- Mm-hmm shed everything. But it's, it's the hardest one, because you think you're there. You know, you think you've got it all sorted. You think you've learnt the lessons. But it... Each, each time life gets easier and you're freer, but each time you then get hit by a lesson, it's harder because- Mm you're digging deeper. You know, you're li- ripping off layers, so you're getting right down to the core of things. So the last layer- Yeah is obviously gonna be the, the hardest, and that's the moon. Mm. Um- It's, it's making me think about, um, not being young- and not looking young anymore. Yeah. And that is really interesting. Yeah. Um, because I'm naturally thin anyway- Yeah I've always kind of looked a lot, a lot younger than I, I am, because I don't look like I've had kids or, you know- Mm all that. I've got like a small man frame really. Mm-hmm. Um, and so it's quite... So, um, I've heard you use the term baby crone. Mm. And I heard someone else at the weekend say young elder. I'm pretty sure it's that. You know- Yeah where you're kind of just in this transition phase of, of maturity. Um, and, and really that's a... I, I'm not in menopause yet- so I've still got some cycle left. Um, and yet it's coming. Mm-hmm. Um, and I suppose I just think about how, how I h- yeah, I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking, like, but it's, I still can't believe it. I still can't believe- Mm that I- We got there. Yeah. Look at how we age. I know. Yeah, cheers. I mean, what? What? Does anyone- It's- Does anyone aware of the fact that part of being an adult- Are they sure? Are they sure about this? Um, so yeah, I, I think that is... And imagine- Like, imagine that, like when I, when I see people much older, like in their 80s, and I'm like, "Gosh, that's gonna be me as well hopefully- one day." Mm-hmm. And that... So therefore, you think you're not young now. Wait till then. Yeah, yeah. Wait. Yeah, yeah. Wait till- I'm... So I had a vision that I live to 114. I'm not even halfway through yet. No way. I know. I know, and I'm like, freaking heck, I don't wanna be like really in pain and disabled for 30- Yeah 40 years. Like- Sat inside that's why I take care of myself. I try and look after myself- Mm-hmm as much as I can because- Yeah I, I'm in it for the long haul. Um- Yeah and so I've got to, I've got to pace myself, you know. I've got- Mm-hmm I've, I'm not even halfway through yet. I've got a lot more fun to be had and a lot more to do, but I need to be fit and well and, you know, compos mentis and all the rest of it, so. I, I'm doing maths of what is half of 414. 57. Yeah. I just about got there. And I was like- this will be hard. Yeah. And I'm not, I'm 47, so I've got 10 years yet- Yeah till I'm halfway. Jesus. Yeah, yeah. 47 seems young, you know. I'm 48- Yeah and still 47- Yeah seems like way young. Yeah. We're totally young. Like- Yeah you know, 57, that's definitely adult. Yeah. But then I, but then I'd have the whole of that again- Yeah to get to 114. Yeah. So actually we've got a whole fucking wealth of- Yeah 'cause probably most of us are gonna get to 100 now. If you- Yeah if you're healthy and you don't, get hit by something, you're probably gonna get to 100. Yeah. Yeah. And you avoid, uh, the majority of what's sold in a supermarket. Yeah. Yeah. You'll be- I don't think that you'll probably be good. Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting, um, seeing older people at, and- Like, up until fairly recently, until I really kind of started to pay attention to climate justice the majority of people still working, like researching, really working hard, still in their 70s plus- Mm-hmm have been men. But now I see more f- more women more women kind of still working, still contributing. Um, and, and that's available to us as well, isn't it? Um, if, if we can keep... Well- Yeah if we can keep good- the lesson I see here on Sark is don't retire. Keep going. Yeah. They don't have a choice here. But I'm in the government with my grandfather-in-law who's 82, and he's still there, like, he's... He cut- Yeah he cuts all the paths. So all of the paths, the cliff paths that you walked around when you were on Sark, he cut all of them. He's there- Yeah with a chainsaw, he's there with a strimmer, doing that every day. And then he's in- Yeah the government, sharp as a tack. He's the one that knows all the laws and all the things that we've done. We... When he's gone, we could be halfway through trying to write a law or doing something before we maybe find out that we can't because something got passed- Mm 500 years ago. He knows. Yeah. So he saves us so much time, because he's like, "No, you can't do that because of X, Y, and Z." But we'll lose that when we lose him. So it's- Yeah it's actually quite scary, 'cause he- Yeah and he's got this tiny little black folder that he always brings, and it's always the same width, and yet every paper you ever need is always in it. He's always got- Right whatever. Yeah. He's like Mary Poppins's bag. It's like he's always- He is got the document. Yeah. He is a magician. Ooh, I've just seen a rat. There's a rat in the tree. Sorry. We don't have squirrels, but it looked like a squirrel, but it's like, no, that's a black rat. Wow. That was exciting. Wow. I've not seen that in years. Oh, your place sounds incredible. It sounds- It's mad. Yeah, it is mad. You're gonna have to come and stay. Yeah. It's... Oh, it's just brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, love it. It's so cool. Um- Yeah the other thing I was gonna say about age is, um, 'cause I did, um- I thought I was gonna be a famous actress. Like, it- that was just a, that was, it was a given, and everything... for it to happen, I had to give it everything. Like, you don't sort of... I mean, some people do accidentally stumble into it, but generally you've gotta, like, 100% go for it, and I did, and then have 100% gone for, like, being an artist and, and doing my thing- ever since. But it meant that when I hit 30, I went through the dark night of the soul then about age- Right. Yeah because I wasn't the ingenue, I wasn't the Scarlett Johansson, I wasn't famous. And- Mm by that point, I knew it was too late for what I had imagined I was gonna do. So that's where I got that throw the postcard away with the image on it of what you think's- Mm meant to be. And the second I did do that, my life became incredible. You know, and I, I suddenly did all these things that actually were... You know, I always wanted to be a published author, I always wanted to be, making theater in Edinburgh, but it just didn't look how I imagined it would look. Mm. And the measure of success wasn't the measure of success that I'd had in place. Um, so yeah, because I went through it then, ever since I've... I felt old then, so I've been- Mm in my head I've been old for ages. 'Cause- Yeah that was the moment for me. That was the industry as well then. Yeah, totally. Exactly. Yeah. It really was. Yeah. Not for the guys. Yeah. No. Like, it's all starting at 30. Yeah, exactly. And women- Yeah absolutely. You know, it's, um- Yeah it's only been now the women sort of maybe about five, 10 years older than me that are the ones- Yeah like paving the way to say we have- Yeah every right to carry on making- Yeah work and existing. We've got stories- Yeah to tell. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So what's your chaos crusade, my love? So what I've been looking at, um, I've been reading and learning about philosophy. Mm-hmm. And I haven't done that before- which is kind of shocking for some, but it just hasn't really, um, kind of come into my radar. And, and then what I realize is that what we- Think we know, as in knowledge, is a socially constructed idea. Um, and I've been really paying attention to that, like where our philosophy in the West has come from. Yeah. So, um, my, my crusade, my chaos crusade, is to encourage people to, um, bring it to mind an idea that they have and that they hold, and to have a go at by writing this down, um, being able like to, like as if you're explaining it to someone a bit disinterested a, an impartial person. Um, and to, to write down like what your ideas are and what makes your ideas justifiable, what makes them worth, um, thinking about and, and believing for another. And so what, what this has done, I've done it with my research and I'm gonna keep working on it actually because I, I've built kind of fair, some foundations of knowledge. Um, but there, it really, like the importance of language is something that's really come to me as well and like the words that we use to explain things are so cultural. Um, and so by really kind of getting specific with a particular idea of what you think about climate change or what you think about aging- Mm-hmm um, really paying attention to those ideas, uh, and what makes you think that. Um, and then recognizing that these, although you might have evidence for some of these things, climate change definitely there's evidence- but a lot of this is gonna be influenced by your culture. So a lot of the thoughts that we've, that we're having, they're not our thoughts, they're our culture's thoughts. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I suppose that's the bit that I would really like people to have a go at is, is examining where these ideas that they've held for such a long time, where they've come from. Um, an additional bit would be to try and, um, look into different philosophies from, from different areas. Mm-hmm. So, the Ubuntu philosophy from countries in Africa, um, where it's very res- like reciprocal. so Ubuntu, this is showing, like humanity towards others and all things. Mm-hmm. So, um, I, I can send you a link of a, a, a beautiful lecture I- Mm I watched really examining this. Um, uh, from, uh... He was a, an engineer like employed for sustainability practice, but for a company that's extracting, moving people and beings from their land. So he's stopped that. He's, like moved and is now, like self-sufficient, all that sort of thing, as best he can. Um, so the Ubuntu philosophy, like a title or a common phrase that they use is, "I am because we are because you are." So really seeing this interconnectedness, um, and paying attention to the kind of ideas and beliefs that you have written down, and do they connect to that kind of philosophy, or do they connect to our individualist- Mm-hmm um, human in charge of nature sort of place- Mm-hmm and, and therefore seeing what you can do to kind of examine those- Yeah and be able to pay attention to some of those philosophies. What's great about that chaos crusade is we're coming up to the Sagittarius full moon on Monday- Yeah and Sagittarians are all about philosophy. That's the- Right that's what Sagittarius is. It's the philosopher- Yeah sign. Uh, so actually probably the hermit is, uh... No, it's Virgo, but, um, yeah, and Virgo is very much about being, like the practitioner. But, um, Sagittarius is, is philosophy. It's, it's, um- So the fact that you thought this probably is slightly influenced by that Love that, yeah what's going on with the moon. Yeah. Um, but also, um, some things I would recommend to also look at to question- Yeah our thinking is Sophie's World is absolutely brilliant. Um, it was written for... It was a philosopher, he wrote it for his daughter to try and just, like, quickly go through all of the, like, standing on the shoulders of giants. Like literally going from ancient Greece through to, it was written probably in the '80s maybe, or the '90s. It might be even earlier than that, it might be '70s. Mm-hmm. Um, so it'll be a bit out of date in terms of, you know, where we're at now. Um- Mm-hmm but it's gone through, it- it's gone through from the beginning to then. Um- Yeah but then to pick up where we are now, I would look at the Adam Curtis documentaries. Oh. So Hypernormalization and- Uh documentaries like that because he is- Yeah he just is like a hot knife through butter. He's like- Yeah we got here because of this and because of this and because of this. Yeah. And now we're here. Yeah. And it's so good. He's so good. Yeah. I've shown them all to Diz and it's blown his mind. Yeah. Yeah. It, it like, literally Adam C- like, Can't Get You Out of My Head. Yes. Yeah. Um, that... W- was that, like, three- Yeah or four different episodes? Yeah. My gosh, it made me so mad. It- Yeah uh, yeah. I, I was full of fury after that. Adam Curtis is an absolute beast of a guy- Yes isn't he? Yeah, he really is. In terms of bringing things together. Yeah. So that, I love that. Um, I love that, that we're coming into the moon of, of the philosopher. Yeah. Um, that we're really able to- Be curious about where all these ideas and lenses come from- Yeah because- Yeah, and that's what we need to keep doing, especially with AI- We research it especially with all of the, um, fake news and, you know, people aren't doing research. They're not listening- Mm-hmm to experts. They're not trusting evidence. Yeah. They're being able to just lie and make things up. Yeah. We have to get more and more discerning in ourselves. Yeah. We have to learn how to research. We have to learn to, uh, know where things have come from. Like, the amount of thoughts that I've had that I think are completely profound and new, and then my ex-husband, who studied philosophy at university, be like, "Oh, no, that's so-and-so," or, "No, that's so-and-so. That got disproven by and I'm like- Yeah "Shut up." Shut up. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. Yeah. It, it, it's the same as with science. You know, you have to be willing to let your thing go, you know? If it's, if you've- Mm spent your whole life working on a thing and then someone proves that you're wrong, the whole point of science is you shake them by the hand and you say, "Thank you." Mm-hmm. Because you've moved things forward. Yeah. You've proven to be wrong. Yeah. And that's what we ought to do with philosophy as well, and that's the way- Yeah we ought to be in ourselves, is that we should be open to learning, to not being right. No one knows anything. We're literally- Mm making it up, and the whole thing- Yeah is made up. And so if someone- Mm can go, "Oh, well, that actually was- Mm proven to not work because of this," you know, someone, you know, showed this. Brilliant. You know, let it go. Let it go. Mm-hmm. It's not... Mm. No one cares. There's no, you know, applause to be won from s- being stubborn. All you're doing is limiting yourself and- Yeah yeah. We just need to- Yeah, and not learning. Not learning. Yeah, you're not learning. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, there's so much to learn. Yeah. You know, let's not- Yeah sit on our laurels. Let's get, keep going. Let's get to it. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Oh, thank you so much, AJ. That was amazing. Oh. Love you. You wonderful- Oh, it was so great. It was so lovely to just have a conversation with you- Yeah as well. It's- Yeah yeah, beautiful. Always fun. Awesome. So that was the awesome AJ. How wonderful was that? She's such a bubbly, inspiring lady, and has real integrity, and it's something that I think we see in each other and we appreciate in each other. And I feel it about her whole family. She's got an amazing family who I love and adore. They're one of my adopted families, the ones that I pick up along the way, and who, who are special to me. Uh, so I'm friends with all of her... Not all of her siblings, I don't know two of them. But I do know f- four of them, and I'm very good friends with all of them, and they're just a really lovely lot. And I'm also friends with, uh, their, her half-brother's mum. Um, and I know her, the grandfather, but I don't know if that's... I think it's her half-brother's grandfather, not hers. But I, yeah, I know a lot of the family. And they're very intelligent, kind, sprightly, fun, uh, mischievous people, and they're my kind of people. So I really enjoyed that conversation. I'm glad I got to share it with you, and I hope it, uh, made you think. And I'm very excited about the Chaos Crusade for this week, so I'm gonna go off and do a little bit of, um, thought investigation. And yeah, I look forward to speaking to you next week. Um, what's happening? Just summertime really. It's very hot and very sweaty, and I burnt my hand, and then had to... The hottest day of the year, so just the air was hurting my hand. I scalded it. So hopefully that'll be better by next week, and I'll let you know what I've been up to. So thank you for being here. Much love. I'll see thee anon