Nonsense in the Chaos

#66 Church of Burn; Jonathan Harris and the Ritual of Burning Money

• Jolie Rose • Season 2 • Episode 66

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#66 Church of Burn; Jonathan Harris and the Ritual of Burning Money

Episode #66 dives into the Church of Burn with Jonathan Harris, its Reverend and creator of a movement that treats money not as a master but as a material for ritual transformation. Is it art-magic, a cult, a new form of religion, or something stranger? The Church calls itself a gathering around a sacred act: the literal sacrifice of money to expose its power, its mythology, and its grip on our bodies and imaginations.

Jonathan speaks about the shock, fascination and moral challenge their rituals provoke, and why burning money offers a direct, visceral encounter with the Old God of capital. Through collective loss, the Church explores generosity, sovereignty, and the possibility of loosening money’s hold on our lives. This conversation unpacks the politics, philosophy and raw somatic experience at the heart of a practice that stands on the edge of art, spirituality and rebellion.

https://churchofburn.org

@churchofburn

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

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The. Welcome to The Nonsense In the Chaos. I'm your host, Jaylie Rose. I don't need to do much introduction to this week's conversation because it happens in the conversation, but I am here interviewing Jonathan Harris, who I met through the Pilgrimage for Peace and everything about the work that he's doing just completely intrigues me right from the off and. The conversation just absolutely was everything I hoped it would be. So I'm not gonna waste your time. I'm gonna get straight into the meat of it. And I can't wait for you to hear everything that Jonathan has to say. So, without further ado, here is Jonathan Harris.

Jolie:

Welcome, John.

Jonathan:

Thank you. Jelly

Jolie:

So, is there a name that you are known by as a church being

Jonathan:

Church being I go by Reverend Jonathan. But I'm very

Jolie:

Reverend Jonathan X them?

Jonathan:

happy with John if whichever works for you.

Jolie:

I, I like Reverend. I once you know, when you can buy a fake title. I once bought Reverend as a title, It was like, probably like 10 quid or something like that. But I bought Reverend Jolie booth, which was my old surname. I just thought it sounded good.

Jonathan:

You can apparently. So I did research it and the, it's not a legal, it's not a legal thing. So you know, when you get those questionnaires, when you join something and it says, oh, you missed and miss

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Reverend, if you put Reverend, nobody's gonna tell you off.'cause it's not a real thing,

Jolie:

yeah. That's brilliant. Excellent. Yeah. Excellent. I love that. I know someone who did that with Doctor that they everyone knows them now as doctor and they're not a doctor. It's very good. Get a bit of gravitas. So we met recently on the pilgrimage. How did you end up coming along to the pilgrimage? Tell us a bit about the connection there.

Jonathan:

I know two of your pilgrims Francesca and Daniel, and I had been planning we have a mutual friend who's a little, has a few mobility issues and he was wanting to come and see, you guys on pilgrimage. And we were trying to figure out a way to do it. Unfortunately we didn't plan it out, but I'd been in contact with Francesca and Dan and the, they needed, I think you guys needed a lift to one of your places, Francesca's moms, I think. And it's

Jolie:

Yes, it was. Yeah.

Jonathan:

yeah, I just came up and we had a lovely drink and I dropped you off at Francesca's mom after going round and round about three times for magical purposes. Yeah.

Jolie:

Yes. Yeah. Was it the like first ever roundabout or something? It was,

Jonathan:

roundabout. Yeah.

Jolie:

yes.

Jonathan:

mean, if it's, if you come across the first ever roundabout, you've gotta go round it a few

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

you?

Jolie:

To exactly work a bit of magic and the, I mean, first of all, thank you so much for giving us a lift.'cause that, that's one of the things that's so incredible about doing the pilgrimages, is people just

Jonathan:

roundabout

Jolie:

acts of kindness that keep happening and people being generous and, and going out of their way to come and help. So thank you because that added to the magic of the pilgrimage. You coming and doing that for us.

Jonathan:

I was totally inspired by what you're doing. I think it was amazing to walk that five. I've done a few

Jolie:

Thank you.

Jonathan:

but nothing on that scale. Yeah I was staggered and slightly jealous as well that you were doing it.

Jolie:

You have to come next time. Yeah, it's, it is an amazing thing to do and, it's just so powerful. It is so powerful and it kind of blows me away each time I come back from one. It's almost like I said it as we were walking that I, I've never given birth, but from what I've been told of giving birth, you forget how hard it was afterwards and you remember it with Miss Silk. Yeah. Sort of a delusion of how lovely it was. And then you start doing it again and you're like, oh my God, why am I doing this again? And that's the same with pilgrimage, is that the whole time I was doing it, I was in pain. It's really hard and you're like, oh my God, I forgot. I don't even remember this massive hill. Like I remember. Before it and after it, but I don't remember the huge hill between those two amazing bits.

Jonathan:

And then

Jolie:

you finish it and it, it slowly settles into all the magic of it, which is what's happening to me at the moment. And it's all those magical moments and connections and things like meeting you and, and Francesca's mum as well, was absolutely incredible. And her house was amazing. And yeah, every single step has something incredible about it. And it works it's magic on you for a long time. So you the, how many pilgrimages have you done?

Jonathan:

They're not a pilgrimage like. Quite like the pilgrimages you do with,

Jolie:

No.

Jonathan:

So when I started so I decided that the mountains of Britain must be put beneath the staff. So the staff is the holy object of the burn, all hail the staff. and so I this, I think 24, yeah, 2014 was the first one. Went Snowden, then scarf park, then Ben Nevis. I did that with my kids and they moaned. Every step of the way. But of course now they look back on it, they're like, oh, when are we gonna do that again? It is

Jolie:

Yes.

Jonathan:

you say, you forget the pain of

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

And the fear of it as well. And then I also did a sort of group pilgrimage with my friend Daisy Campbell. She organized the CERN to CERN pilgrimage, which Dan was on which was not it was, there was a little bit of walking involved, but it was a coach across Europe from Cerner bis, the Cerner BIS giant, which is the chalk figure carved into a hill Dset to the CERN laboratory in Switzerland and in Geneva. And we did various magical things on the way and we did a big magical action at the center of cern. And that was yeah, so that was quite an epic pilgrimage. And also to Carl Jung's house in Bolling. We ended up there. And then since then, yeah, and I've got a kind of a little pilgrimage that I'm kind, my lifetime, the thing that I've set myself to do for the rest of my life now. I've only done a couple and I can't believe I've only done a couple. The first one that I did at the beginning of this year was to Ely Cathedral. So I go to cathedrals and churches in a particular pattern, which I won't reveal to burn money there. and had started at Ely Cathedral. I couldn't have wanted for a better start. And I went with my friend St. Sarah, and we took communion with the Bishop of Ely there. I'd never been to a

Jolie:

Wow.

Jonathan:

communion before, but yeah. What a venue. My mean, my goodness.

Jolie:

Yeah. Eli's so amazing as well. It's such a, a richly historical magical place. Like it feels so thick with atmosphere.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

an incredible place to start.

Jonathan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

talk about the Church of Burn. Tell us about this.

Jonathan:

So the Church of Burn I started burning money as you do in 2007. So money has been a fascination throughout my whole. Throughout my whole life really. I've, I'm a graduate of the London School of Economics. I went there to study money really, but they economics doesn't really consider money

Jolie:

I.

Jonathan:

So that so I quickly learned how frustrating that was that nobody really thinks about money. So I started burning in 2007. And I originally, I had what I called a money burning day, which was the 23rd of October. Every year, 23rd because it's 23. And magical number 23, October.'cause most crashes happen in October. So it's a kind of financial, high point or low point, depending on your perspective. And I kept going every year trying to figure out what it was I was doing and what it meant. It was immediately apparent to me even at the very first burn. I didn't have a preconception in my head about what it was I was doing. and it was immediately apparent that this was a ritual and it was a sacrifice. And, i, then I start and then that's basically since that point, it's been an exploration of the meaning of that if there is any meaning to it and its effect on me and its effect on people who, who burned. So anyway, sorry. So to cut along, story short, so I started doing, I did it for a few years, 2015. I did the ritual for the first time with somebody else involved in the ritual. So two people burning money together and I ritualized it a bit more. And that completely me in my head that was completely amazing. And I was like, wow, this is really powerful stuff. One per me doing it on my own, trying to think about overthink it and stuff is one thing, but doing it two people together and also making something of a pilgrimage to do it. We walked into the woods and we set stuff, so we put effort into it.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

then the following. So I did that, which blew my mind. The following morning I woke up and there was an email from the place called the Cube Cinema in Bristol and they said, would you come to Bristol to give us permission to burn money? and they were having a KLF night there. There was 175 people there. In November I went there and it and it felt like a very magical time. So in between the August the 23rd burn in in 2015 and the Cube Cinema, which was in November, 2015, I wrote my book called The Money Burners Manual In that three

Jolie:

Wow. Wow.

Jonathan:

Been writing it for ages and writing and stopping and writing and stopping, and, I just managed to get my teeth into it and wrote this book. And then yeah, then just, stuff kept happening and I kept meeting people and it ended up a copy of the Money Burners Manual. Found its way to Daisy Campbell. she was very keen to do something theatrical with it. So we started, we did a, I think it was 2016. We did our first event at the cockpit theater in London. So the Cockpit Theater is is a, is London's sort of only purpose built theater in the round. so the seats are all around. You've got a performance space on the floor. It is built for ritual. It's just amazing. You couldn't want a better space. So we did that in 2016 and, each year, then after that the director of the cockpit was like, is you fancy coming back and doing the same sort of thing? And I'm like, yeah. And gradually I started really enjoying theater and producing theater and I would, Daisy would direct it and I would pull in different people and different, think about different ways of structuring it and eventually. By 2019 I'd figured out that this was a church and it was a church service. And church of Bur was born slightly before that, but that was really it's the genesis of it. And so in 2019 I, we had a synod, we had a service and we had a ritual. And that was the structure that's we've kept the syn, we were lucky enough to get the late great David Grabber along to to talk about money and its meaning and that sort of stuff. And we had other brilliant guests. And the service I'd I found some wonderful musicians that we had a quite explicit sexual theme at the end, which I thought was just beautiful. And then we. Followed it with the ritual itself, which is money burning obviously, is obviously the key aspect of the evening. And obviously my mind was blown then. I know all I wanted to do with the rest of my life was just do that every night, and then so I was trying to do my best to make that happen. And then of course, COVID came along and I was like, bugger. So we managed I did the first one again on the first weekend that I could when COVID when we came outta the COVID restrictions in 2021, and we did a three day event. And since then we did the secret Garden Party in 2022. But I'd just do it all the time. But it's very, it's a very expensive thing to do, not just in terms of the money that's burnt, but in terms of

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

the production. But yeah, it's been and is being a, just a wonderful adventure and very magical and yeah, I'm very happy doing Church of Burn. That's, I would, I'd spend every

Jolie:

Yeah,

Jonathan:

it if I could. Yeah.

Jolie:

it, it spoke to me so deeply'cause I, it is my deepest wound money and and I'm always trying to come at it from different directions to see if it will change my relationship to it. And I've read amazing books about it and I, you know, I follow economists and I'm interested in it as a, as a structure and the history of it. But I still, it was the moment when I heard about you burning it, something like my nervous system relaxed and it, I was absolutely intrigued. So what's been the effect on some people with it happening? Like what does it do when, when you actually hold these spaces?

Jonathan:

The first thing to say is, and, always. Trying to make this point that this is not a small point, but it is literally a change in your relationship to money.'cause most people have never burnt money in their life and wouldn't even conceive of it. So when you do, you are literally doing that. And I think that's massively important. Even though you just think, people say, yeah, but it's only a bit of polymer or a bit of paper or whatever. But it's then why are we why would we be so concerned about it? And we have all sorts of re we have, you can imagine we have some insanely aggressive reactions against us. We've been threatened with protests and we've had, I've had people say to all sorts of nasty things about it. Whi, which begs the question of why this symbol has such a power over us and also then makes me even more convinced that we need to be we need to be dealing with it on an embodied or a visceral level as well as an intellectual level. And I think that's what we're offer in Church of Burn. I think people generally, gen, generally people have. People have a wide range of reactions, I would say, to money burning. And that was particularly evident in the early days of what we were doing because there was no structure to it. And the fir one of the first things I remember is talking about it just before we did a burn festival in 2016, festival 23, and I remember giving a little talk there beforehand and somebody shouted out treason and he was deadly serious as well. So it was that's the, and obviously you have the reaction of, oh, what a waste, what terrible waste and all that sort of stuff. When people burn though. Generally they generally the thing is they say they feel lighter after it. I've had people giggling people, in the past. One guy remember once, and this was a really instructive moment. He dipped his, it was a five quid. He dipped it in the flame and said, fuck the Tories. It just jarred.'cause it was just like no, that's not where we're at with this ritual. This is not an overtly political statement. This is a, this is something about you, and about your relationship with money. It's much deeper than that. So over the years that service element I talked about where we have a where I've, where we give sermons and we construct the atmosphere and the feeling of it and take people on a bit of a journey. I think that's contained those reactions to hopefully made them more intense and more personal rather than people putting all their putting the anxiety in whatever on a symbol. It being, oh, I'm an being anticapitalist anti Tory, or anti, whatever it is. And it makes it hopefully it internalizes it for them. That's the idea of what we do with the service element. So yeah, range of reactions, hopefully, that we've when we do church of Burn, hopefully we intensify and condense it and into something that's that's felt within you rather than expressed about some outside entity. Sorry, that's a rather complex

Jolie:

No. Yeah no, no, that's, I love it. No, this because it's, this is. Yeah, I, it, it speaks to me on such a deep level because I, it, this is, when I say this is my deepest wound, I don't mean that flippantly like it. I, it goes right into my core. My relationship to money. It's the thing that freezes me and fright. You know, I've, I've got bills and just sat on the edge of my bed not knowing how I'm gonna pay it. And I've just been literally like a rabbit in headlights, and my body's gone into a frozen state. And so it's affected me on such a, like, physical level. And so the thought of burning it does, it's something in me that makes me go, you can't do that. But then also it's like, oh, wouldn't it be bloody great to do that? That like, it, it, it wants to, my body wants to do it because I can feel what that would, what the benefit would be and how, and it is the embodied feeling of heal, like healing that relationship somehow. Yeah, I mean, I was surprised at my reaction to it. I mean, I'm intrigued at the kind of amounts people burn, like, I guess because it's a sacrifice, you wanna make it you know, the bigger the sacrifice to the more powerful the, the connection to the divine element of it, I guess.

Jonathan:

To a, to an extent, yeah. I mean we, I talk about the sweet so spot you need to burn just enough so that you feel a little bit of pain is the way you put it. But

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

I think you burn, you can burn too much and there's a kind of numbness to it. When the KLF burnt a million quid, they talked about that about, there being no feeling to it. It just became bits of paper. I've burnt I, I mean it doesn't sound much now, but I burnt 50 quid I can't remember, was it 2011 or something like that. So it was a while ago, so it was worth a bit more back then. And I was very skinned at the time, but I'd set myself a task of burning 50 quid. I'd done 10, 20, and then I did 50. It was too much for me. And it just it was, yeah. So it didn't really, if I'd burnt 30 quid or something, that would've been the sweet spot. So I think there's a sweet spot for every burn. And for, I think for most it's not that difficult to get,'cause for most people it's like 20, 30 quid, if you're doing all right, if you've got a, a 30, grand a year job, then you, 50 quid really is what you need to be doing. It's a good night out. It's, that's the sort of the level, whatever your scene is, whether you're like a bottle of whiskey or whatever that's the amount you need to you need to hurt yourself, I think. Yeah.

Jolie:

I love it. And in terms of the, like magic or spiritual element of that, do you mind sharing a bit about

Jonathan:

Not at

Jolie:

that is to you or what you're working with?

Jonathan:

So I had I, I'm, I feel very blessed with how I've entered into magic.'cause I don't really, know anything at all about tradition. I know a little about traditional magic and ceremonial magic. When I first started I happened to, I've been lucky enough to know, I know some wonderful majors. And when I first started, I lent out to one of them quite a well-known guy. And I said, how should I approach this ritual? And for whatever reason, he didn't get back to me. He didn't, which is unusual. And I dunno whether he never got me. I've never asked him. it was the, it was a blessing because I then just approached it in my own way. And, my with the ritual, my general the general thing I've learned from it is to get out of its way. So whereas I used to speak words during the ritual itself. I now really, I just rely on hand movements and I have the staff or ha the staff, so I've got everything I need. And people know what they're gonna do. And we do all that work beforehand. so we do, we use we use have a drone 1, 1 1 Hertz drone. So it's quite overpowering for, the sound. And yeah, it's it's just hands. So I the magical stuff, I suppose I've been most, mostly influenced by chaos, magic. I, yeah I oh, how can I put it? I suppose I'm a rebel magician, really is how I put it. It's not that I'm it's not that I don't think there's value in it for people who do magic. A lot of my friends are magicians who know of the the different traditions of magic. But for me I think if there'd been some, somebody in history who'd. Been a money burner, studied them and thought, oh, you did, it did it this way. But there, there isn't. So it's it's new ground. So it needs new, I think it, for me, it needs a new approach and a new magic to it. And that's what I've been exploring. It's a great joy to do. Just approach it with an open mind and with honesty, I think is the way I is the way I do it. And of course the actual, effects of it are, it comes through synchronicities. And the appearance of goddesses are goddess malus as appeared through the magic of the ceremonies. And you, don't take it too seriously, but also listen to it as well because, I, so with Malus in our the goddess of Church of Bur, I tried to, I was ignoring the presence of this this goddess. And the other people involved with the church was like, look, she's and so was lots and lots of knock your hat off, synchronicities coming in around. So of course then I had to admit that, she was the goddess and then, not ignore her. otherwise there'd be problems.

Jolie:

Yeah, totally. What's her connect? Is there a connection between her, the money? Why do you think she's Appeared?

Jonathan:

the, so the story is I had, I found a book, I can show you the book here, just here. So this book can you see that? Okay.'cause I can't see my,

Jolie:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan:

it's a museum to it's the most famous exhibition of, money, art ever ever held. It was in 1978 in Dusseldorf, and they produced two catalogs. So a any major artist at that time, Andy Warhol, whatever joie, Deb Dubai's all presented at this show. And they produced these two catalogs and they had, they, some of the great philosophers of the time wrote pieces on it. It was just a, such a huge thing. is in German. I don't speak German, but I'm a money nerd and I collect money stuff, I wanted these things, so I got them and I didn't, I couldn't figure out why that was on the front cover. I was like, why what's the relationship with it? by some cataloging error it wasn't mentioned in the actual catalog either. So it was a bit of a mi it was a bit of a mystery and and I, so I posted it online. And within a few hours of me posting it online. So I was, saying, does anyone know what this is? Pitts Rivers Museum, my favorite, one of my favorite museums in Oxford posted the sim, the same motif on a brass plate that came from Nigeria. And I was like, oh my, I've never seen this image before. Why is it? So it came up and and then people started saying to me this is the origination of the Starbucks logo. And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. So it's a mermaid figure. Anyway, It's turning into a long story. So I got in touch with a guy called Hus Ksky, was one of the curators of that. Exhibition back in 1978. Old guy now. Oh he's, unfortunately, he's passed now. And he told me, he said what it was a, the cover plate of a, of, in a money chest, the old money chest, you'd open a money chest

Jolie:

Oh yeah.

Jonathan:

And they'd have a locking mechanism in the lid. And the cover plate covered the locking mechanism.

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan:

So anyway he said he didn't know where the chest was now, so eventually I tracked down the chest to the the German National Museum. They didn't, they had it in their archive, so they had to hunt for it. So they took this all, took ages. I paid them to take some pictures of it. They took some pictures of it, so I got some pictures of it, and there I have it. I was like, oh, okay. So there was a this explicit mermaid figure, because she is quite, she's revealing on this money chest. And I was, that's really interesting. so I put it to bed in my head thinking I've solved that mystery. Then a few a while later, I think it was six months later, I went to the Bank of England Museum. And in the Bank of England Museum the key area of the Bank of England Museum is this sort, glass plate. And behind the smoked glass plate, there is the founding charter of the Bank of England from 1694. So this is possibly the most important financial document in the world. Below that. Was laid across a chest was some tally sticks. The remainder of the tallystick. The story of the Tallystick is that the the present houses of Parliament are built. That building is there. Because in the building before they burnt a load of tally sticks as we changed from tallystick to paper. So we used to record debts on tally sticks. That's a stick that used to slice into and it would record the debt. They had tons of tally sticks, but because and they had a debate in parliament about it and they said, let's give the tally sticks to the poor'cause then they're valueless now let's give'em to the poor and they can use'em as firewood the and and they said, no, we can't do that because they are money. We think they're money so we need to burn them. So they burn them in the furnaces and the whole building court light. This was in 1834 I think, if somebody might correct me on that. I think it was 1834. And it burnt the building down. And then that's why they built the building that's there currently. So tally the burning of the

Jolie:

Wow.

Jonathan:

burnt down parliament. That's the story I tell. And anyway, so those. you have the chart, are there, the tally stick's there, the chest and on the lid of the chest. Who's on the lid of the chest? There she is. So I was like, okay.

Jolie:

Wow.

Jonathan:

obviously at some point in the past, figure, this mermaid figure, this explicit figure has been, and she's got a Catholic look to her. She's not really a president reformation thing. She's more ancient than, Sheila, the gig kind of vibe going

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

And and I thought, that's obviously a key element there of our past relationship with money.

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan:

Yeah. And so she'd made her presence very much felt to me doing it. The Bank of England is that's the central point for all this. And she was right there, literally right in the center of it all by the tally sticks, by the founding charter. She, you

Jolie:

That's amazing.

Jonathan:

yeah.

Jolie:

That is amazing. And Starbucks as well.'cause aside from it being a coffee place, the name Starbucks, it's like the celebrity of, of money.

Jonathan:

exactly.

Jolie:

Like the star of the star of money.

Jonathan:

Is like if you are a goddess and you wanted your image all around the world to be worshiped,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

She's smart, that's really

Jolie:

She, she's doing well.

Jonathan:

Yeah, she is. She's, she's got more, she's got more statues of her. So I've researched this and we, when we did the Secret Garden park, we presented all this information. There's these huge mermaid statues all around the world. She's like a goddess hidden in plain sight, if you like.

Jolie:

Yeah. Right.

Jonathan:

been, that's been a wonderful thing and it's not been a thing that I've thought, oh, that would be a great idea and pursued. It's just come at me and presented

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

to me, yeah.

Jolie:

I love that.

Jonathan:

great.

Jolie:

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. And I work at the Mermaid Tavern, which you noticed. So I'm gonna put the cards up

if you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting me on Patreon, which is patreon.com/joly. Rose, it's money talking about money. It's interesting asking for financial support and yeah, I talk about money all the time, don't I? And it is, Something that's kind of awkward to do and one hopes that people are it lands well, you know, I, I want people to feel that it's worth them supporting me financially because I know how hard it is at the moment. Times are hard and. For you to have the money to give me seven pound a month or three pound a month, it feels weird'cause I'm not a charity, but I am an artist and I am putting things out into the world and I do a lot of things for free and I want things to be accessible. That's the way that I've always worked, especially when it comes to stuff to do the inner world. It doesn't feel right for me to be charging huge amounts of money for it I feel like I would rather share in a world stuff with you. just for free. And then it'd be up to you what you wanna give back. You know, that you give me a donation because you want to, I tell you what my favorite book on witchcraft is, Tiffany Aching from the Disc World Series by Terry prt. there's different characters that the disc world follows and some of the characters are the three witches. There's Tiffany Aiken, and there's nanny O and Granny Weather Works. I'm definitely a nanny org in the making. I'm not quite old enough to be here yet, but one day. But they're the best instructions I've ever. Read for witchcraft, and they talk about how a witch's job is to cut the nails of the old man. That's really what a witch should be doing. And all the like, crystals and Instagram version of things is, is there's, I can't remember what her name is, but there is a witch in the book that is like that, and she's all just pomp and special effects she doesn't go and cut the old men's nails and so she's not a proper witch and that's why she never comes out on top when there's the competitions or you know, who gets the takeover from Granny Weatherwax and all that sort of thing. And Tiffany aching, is a hardworking nuts and bolts witch from the chalk, which is where I'm from. I mean, I'm from Essex originally, but Brighton where I spent the last 20 years and where kind of cut my teeth as a witch.'cause Essex was somewhere where I had to flee because that's where the witch trials happened for a start. But I definitely felt very unsafe there and then got to Brighton where. Witches were attracted to congregate. We, we all realized that we were women that didn't like other women. And we'd all moved to Brighton and we all moved there and we all worked as artists and we all supported each other. And there was the arts council and there was people paying to come and see us. And it was this amazing place where I got to live as an artist for 20 years and, and had enough money to live off of from being an artist. And if ever I wasn't earning enough money, I had the social system, social care system. Caught me and gave me working tax credits and helped me out with council tax and, got cheaper travel and I dip in and out of that, but mainly was self-sufficient and mainly was paying tax back in and was mainly able to live as an artist. But ever since the start of my career I've always made my work accessible and I've always. Liked working with things by donation so that people invest in their inner world and you make a choice as to what you are going to invest. So currently I'm offering tarot readings for the buildup to New Year and Christmas And that's by donation. I can do that as gift cards as well. And then we have the immersion weekend coming up, which is not going to be in bulk. I hoped it would be, but we can't make it work with the accommodation. So it's gonna be a Starra instead, which is the 20th, 21st, 22nd of March. And then also the creation. Hibernation is about to start, if you can't afford to support me financially, that's not a problem at all because people who can are, and if you are able to subscribe or follow any of my stuff share it. Word of mouth is amazing. So all of that is also really useful. Do the reviews and stars and rate me on Spotify or wherever you're getting your podcast from, and that's also really great. So thank you ever so much. And now on with the show.

Jolie:

If you have a look at them and there'll probably be a lag. So you might not get exactly the cards you were asking for, but if I put my cards up like this and then I'll go like this, my finger and you say, stop. Ah, very interesting. Okay, so this is the Prince of Discs, which would represent money, discs is money. And he's there with the globe and with a kind of chariot being pulled by a bull. So I dunno if that

Jonathan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

image Yeah, exactly. I suppose there's slightly like the masculine, I mean that's, to me looks a bit like globalization or the kind of patriarchal element to it. I mean, what, what that wants me to ask you is what's your relationship to that part of money to the kind of the. What we normally think of as money, the stock exchange and globalization and capitalism and all that kind of stuff. Like how does that, how has it changed your relationship to it, or what's your relationship been with that?

Jonathan:

Oh. It's been, it's a weird it's a weird relationship.'cause I think I've, I've been on the money coalface for 35 years or something like that. Been, my, money's been my thing. And I, a lot of people have an interest in money and they very soon decide what money is and then they go look at the systems. And I think that's fair enough,

Jolie:

I.

Jonathan:

I've been just looking at the same spot for forever. Forever because I can't, it's a mystery and I just keep keep going with it. When, after the global crisis in 2008, there was a huge surge of money texts of people reconsidering money because we had this global crisis. then all of a sudden people started thinking why are we like this about money? Why are we, does money rule our world so much? And it was that moment when, the stock markets fell and it all this money we had suddenly disappeared. and it in that point of money having, of losing its meaning, we became fascinated by what it is and and why it has, its that control over us. But again, I think since then I think that we've, and like yesterday is a good example is we don't talk. And think directly about money and our relationship to money, and the power of this symbol. We don't think about it in, in spiritual religious cultural terms. We have this language of economics, which is like the Latin that the priests would use in the olden days which very few people really understand and, and it I. I just don't, it's just doesn't, a lot of it just doesn't make any sense. Whatever level, the higher level you go. There was a famous moment the crash when one of the, one of the the chief bankers said, we've experienced, I think it was a Sigma four moment, which is like a moment that's so rare that it happens like once in the life of a universe. And that was his explanation for a, for the financial crash. That's obviously bullshit. It's just it's just rubbish. And when you get to that, those levels of complexity of thinking where people say, oh no, you, these normal people can't understand this stuff, that's ossification. That's hiding it, that's the same sort of thing that the priests have done. And I'm I could be I'm quite aggressively anti economics at some point, and I think that they dismiss money, they dismiss our relationship to it. And I think that any economics that, I think, but I think I, but look, to cut a long story short, David Grabber just bef few months before he died, said, we should chuck economics in the bin and start again. And that's really, I couldn't say any better, because it's not going to, it's not gonna solve our problems because you are thinking within the same ideology. And really that's, I suppose what my mission is with Church of Burn is to crack through that, break through that and to think about the world in different terms. It's an impossible task. You gotta try.

Jolie:

Yeah, definitely, definitely have. Yeah. I'm in a really interesting position here on SARC because I'm in a community of 500 people and within that community we have billionaires and multimillionaires and millionaires and old money and new money and bin men and teachers and doctors and bar maid like me. And you know, literally the whole of humanity is in this one little tiny, one mile long and three miles, well, three miles long and one mile wide island. And we're all hanging out with each other. And yesterday I was in the pub working behind the bar with a multimillionaire, discussing with a leftwing. He works in tech, so he is got some money, but he's not rich for it. Who's. An old hippie and, and we were discussing the tax'cause we've got, we've got to do something about the tax here. at the moment it's a tax haven for the wealthy, but for people like me who are on 12 pound an hour it's 600 and something, 630 quid. It's just gone up to, well, in the UK I'd be paying half of that and I would be getting free healthcare a pension. I'd get benefits for, you know, when times are hard here, I don't get any of that. And so I was trying to get across to this guy who's sitting there in the bar. He's a friend of mine. I got really well with him. But just trying to get him to see the fact that for him, he's complaining about a few thousand pounds when he is a multimillionaire. And yet you are taking what's nearly a month's wage from me. It's just like the percentages of what what we're putting in aren't equal. And actually this isn't a tax haven for someone on low earnings, but it's just an interesting situation to be in.'cause when I lived in Brighton for 20 years, I never came in contact with. Any of these people that are from completely different walks of life to me. So it's quite a fascinating place to be. I'll put the cards up again. Tell me when to stop. Do you want one right on the end? So this one, it's interesting looking one, it's the seven of swords and it's futility and so swords is all about thinking the mind. And so yeah, what, you know, this is kind of science, it's overthinking and it's the futility is like where do you feel like we are just banging our heads against a brick wall and what needs to shift?

Jonathan:

Just where we just went. Isn't it really?

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

yeah. I think it's about rebalancing between that the sort of rational, and the cause effect model. Another model, which is a sacrificial model. And I think we need to rebalance those. so within so one of the things that we do with within Church of Burn is we try not to so within services we know, try not to say if you burn money, you will get, you will manifest, or anything like that. The idea is it's a sacrifice and a sacrifice is not a transaction. I know people might disagree with that, but they're wrong. I know'cause I've done it.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

But I think my, certainly my argument is that, the it's our relationship with money over the past couple of millennia that's led us to believe that everything is a kind of cause effect, is a transaction that you give money, you get this, or you sacrifice a goat and the God gives you a good harvest or wherever. And that's like the way we look at stuff. But that isn't certainly it's my experience and in, the philosophy of a guy called George Batay that's not what sacrifice is. Sacrifice is about loss. It's about giving up. And I think, when you to get with, to get really serious about it in terms of sacrifice the, the key thing when we talk about sacrifice is normally we talk about people sacrificing their lives in war. we don't, you don't, when you sacrifice, if you are unfortunate enough to die in a war, you don't know that your sacrifices. Gonna bring about the thing you're dying for. That's you, so you just sacrifice. That's it. And I think it's, that's a really vital point. And I think it cracks open that whole thing that you're talking about there, that there is a futility to all this. There's a futility to the economic growth. It's growth on a, inter infinite growth on a finite planet that the argument the extinction rebellion make, it's like, what, where is it taking us? Where are we going with it? And it's a constant cycle of cause and effect and of the idea of utility that everything must give you something back that you invest money to create more pleasure or more. Yeah. And I think it's that twist that we need that brings us back into the moment. of our phrases in Church of Burn is to be here now. I think that when you make that sacrifice, when you, there is no expectation when there is what we call forgiving, for, to give forward without expectation of return. I think that's a key spiritual moment for us. And I think under capitalism, particularly, but I think generally, people, I think I think what Joseph by said was that, that capitalism is just the latest stage in the history of money. And I think that's a really insightful thing to say. And I think it's a partic, it's a particular relationship with money because it's a relationship where vast majority of money in the world is dedicated towards making more money. That's, that's true. So I think in our little corner. If we can persuade people that that they need to do the opposite of that, with their money, I think that will send out magical ripples. And that's, I think I, and I think it it's a very good thing for us to do for our own being.

Jolie:

Yeah, no, I fully agree with that. And it's, it's actually quite similar to the pilgrimage. So it is not that you are going to get something from doing the pilgrimage. It's an offering you are offering. You are, you are giving the land a massage, you are putting your energy and intention into walking the land and whatever the intention was, the intention this time was pilgrimage for peace. And so just putting that intention out there for peace and to, to think about it and hold it and contemplate it and be with that thing, and it's, it's so. Interesting. What gets thrown at you, and it's not like, oh, here's some gifts. You know, things come, things shift. Huge shifts happen. But, but also, you go through a lot, you know, there's a lot of big things that happen. It's like, oh, you wanna look at peace? Do you, okay, well you try dealing with this. You're like, well, okay. Yeah, okay, yeah. Okay. It's a big thing. I, I once did something where I set the intention of love. It was for the year. My intention was the mythos of love. And I had, I had some huge, like, really full on awful things happen that year that were to do with love. And it was like, the universe listens when you set intentions. It's like,

Jonathan:

know what I mean? It's

Jolie:

I know, definitely I need to definitely set slightly less.

Jonathan:

The thing

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

Is of course, is they always say it's about the journey, not the destination. And I think that's really key.

Jolie:

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Jonathan:

think

Jolie:

Big time.

Jonathan:

you

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

I think that, the pilgrimage that I've done and money burning are related through that, are that idea of

Jolie:

Mm.

Jonathan:

it not being all about getting to the destination. Otherwise you should have taken the train. You know what I mean? It's

Jolie:

no, totally.

Jonathan:

It's about giving that yeah.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

yeah,

Jolie:

Especially with where we ended and hopped in on sea, it was the most hilarious. Like, no one wants to rush to get there. It's the most funny end to a pilgrimage. It's like, oh, huge trailer park. yeah, pilgrimage is, is absolutely the journey. And then obviously that's an amazing metaphor for life. It's enjoy the journey.'cause the ultimate finishing line is death. So it's like, you don't wanna, don't wanna rush head long into that. Let's enjoy the ride. Right. So our third and final card, lemme see when to stop.

Jonathan:

Stop.

Jolie:

Okay. The ace of discs. So that basically is money,

Jonathan:

Is it? Oh, okay. Have we done well there then?

Jolie:

but it's like it's money in its purest form. So I suppose what are you getting to with this relationship with money? What is the, if what money was a newborn baby and you birth, you birth the baby of money, what would it, what actually is money?

Jonathan:

Oh, blowing me now. That's a dangerous question to ask me. I can, yeah, I can tell you must promise to stop me though. When I, when,

Jolie:

Okay.

Jonathan:

you glaze over. I in my view, money is a quantum phenomenon. And I think it's equivalent to the, I think we, what we call money is actually you call the collapsing of the way function. It is a movement between determinacy and indeterminacy Or way? Around. Either. Either way. Either way around. And I think we've, we, I think it's a process that I think that process manifests through the human mind. I, in my work I I like to create a bit of a distinction. It's not actually. Massively helpful, but it is at certain points between money and currency. currency, I describe as a psychosexual event, which sounds a bit weird and it's not actually super helpful because lots of things are psychosexual events. The whole of culture is a psychosexual event. But it does remind you of of the, sort of the provenance of currency that without human beings, without our our sexual lives, our sexual interactions without our psychological interactions and the relationship between sex and psyche, currency wouldn't exist. Yeah that's currency in its rawest ingredients. And I think that's a really helpful thing to understand because we tend to think of currency as little units of stuff floating about. That we can measure and what have you. We think about it in, in terms of it being a measure, I think the measure comes earlier. I think the measure is basically the the most fundamental layer of money. And then we impose this psychosexual this human part over the top of it. So I think it's an incredibly complicated mystery that is not something we can resolve. I think it's something we need to manage better. And I think, I think about what I do as in terms of not resolving the mystery of money. I'm accepting that it's a mystery and I'm trying to live my life better with it, trying to change the way I live with it. Yeah. Now most people, funnily enough, I'm not the only person who describes money as a quantum phenomenon. There are a few people now coming to that idea because quantum mechanics I'm not a, I don't know that much about quantum mechanics, and I'm not a mathematician. But there are it does seem to describe money particularly well a different level. One of the key a another way to talk about money after the philosopher George Sill, who wrote perhaps the greatest book on money, and his key insight was that is that money is ambivalent. And it's important to understand that ambivalence doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It doesn't, you don't care about something. It means the the simultaneous, it's about contradictory emotions, the simultaneous presence of contradictory emotions. So love and hate. You can love and hate something. That's what being ambivalent means about it. It means, it doesn't mean you don't care about it. It means you either love and hate it, or you have two different reactions to opposing reactions to it. And that's what money can hold. It can hold those oppositions. And of course, when you start talking about ambivalence and oppositions, not only do you are you starting to talk about the, psycho ana psychoanalytic view, Jungian, Freudian view of the human mind. But you're also with William Blake. You are engaging with all the greatest literature because it is about those, how you hold those oppositions and how you make a life through holding those oppositions. So money is an incredibly amazing phenomena. People think that,'cause I burn money. I hate it. I'm absolutely fascinated by money. And I think it is an amazing I hate to use the words'cause pe people talk about money as a technology, and money isn't a technology, but if you want to conceive of it in those terms, it's an amazing thing. How it, it coordinates the entire world to its bidding. We all have to do what money

Jolie:

Yeah.

Jonathan:

What an amazing thing. So there, there's all sorts of ways you can think about money. You can think about money as in magical ways, as anor, I think the main thing for me is that people, wait, particularly economists, the main thing for me is that people wake up to the fact that this stuff is absolutely amazing and mysterious, and that we need to find a new way of being with it and not just hand it off to Rachel Reeves and the bankers and people like that, that this stuff has an impact a very granular level of our lives. And and I think you realize that jelly, you, the way you speak about money you are aware of that. And, I think having rituals around money is a ver very is a very appropriate way to deal with that. We all, we've always had rituals around money. We, we don't always treat money as something which should beget more money. We stick it in cards to our grandkids. We give it away. We have lots of different relationships and money, most of which are frowned upon. But they're not productive. when you look at money as a whole, you look at the trillions and trillions of dollars that exist in the world a tiny bit of that. isn't treated as something that must be that must make more of itself. It's a tiny bit. And we need that needs to grow, that needs to grow because then we'll achieve a new balance with money in the world. And it will still be an amazing thing, but hopefully it won't destroy us and the planet it does all this amazing stuff.

Jolie:

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Do you know there's an economist who's an Irish guy who's David something. He does a podcast and has written a book. He wrote a book called Money.

Jonathan:

it's here somewhere. There it is. That guy.

Jolie:

Yes. That's it. He's amazing, isn't it? Because it was in that, that he talks about money being an element and that is, is pretty much an element born from humanity. So as soon as you have a group of people bigger than just your nearest family and you know, tribe, you have to have some way of being able to fill the gap between a. That person having this and you having that, and how do you, how do you figure that out?'cause it can't just be based on trust because you don't know each other well enough and that it's, it's trust. But it's also that as soon, I mean it's, I think the first thing ever written down, so the first kind of human culture recorded is, is alone. You know? So since humanity began to be interactive on a more sophisticated scale, we've had to have this thing filling the gap between us which is this different element of money. And I find that really fascinating that it's, it's sort of trust. That's what money and, and it's even got a promise written on it.

Jonathan:

it's got a promise written on it. Yes. It has. Yeah. I think. I had this year, I was very pleased. I won't talk negatively about his book. I'll talk positively about it because it was very pleasing that an economist, you've got an economist saying, actually, money's really important, and it might be about more about money than it is about economics. So when I read that, I was like, yes. I think I was gonna say to him, I was gonna send him an email saying, maybe look at this, maybe look at that. There are, there is a lot of work. On the, on those things that you're talking about now, about how how money money's impact on the human psyche over two and a half millennia. In fact, more the, this thing you're talking about, those tablets, they go back 5,000 years. So it money's impact on the development of philosophy. Money is like in our DNA it's impacted how we view the world. Yeah, it it's it's a it's inescapable is what I would say. And that's why I'm there, there are plenty of there's another, there's an Irish, he was an Irish guy too who tried, who lived without money for a year or something like that. I don't, I'm a bit skeptical about those things because we are not, you can't escape money. It's already there

Jolie:

No.

Jonathan:

you gotta deal with it, gotta find new ways of

Jolie:

Yeah,

Jonathan:

it. That's the key I think.

Jolie:

yeah, yeah. That's it. Like I feel like my relationship, I, I, it feels like a dance that I'm in a continual dance with it, because I'm like, if I got in the right place with it, would it mean that it flowed more and I ended up with more money? Or if I got in the right place with it, would I just be okay with not having it? And I keep trying to be in that place. So it's just like this continual dance and, and like checking in with myself with the fact that I've lived an amazing life and I've done all sorts of things and I've traveled all over the world and I have crazy multicolored clothes and I've got a reef over my head. And yet in my head I've never had any money. And so it's like, well, you've never had any money, but you've got quite a lot of stuff for someone who's never had any money somehow it's flowed through you, even though it's not stuck around for very long. Yeah, so it's, it just, I I'm always interested in what's going on with it because it, it just seems to have such a massive impact on my life all the time. And it, and it's, the other thing that's living here is, I've just said that there's people who are billionaires and millionaires and everything, but no one knows how much money anyone's got. And you were saying, you know, it's a rude thing to talk about and people are more willing to talk about sex than they are money. And that's the other thing, it's like the most secret secret there is. And like, you know, you're just guessing. You spend the whole time guessing how much money people's got and some people who've got no money are completely buying everyone drinks and are really generous. And other people who've got loads of money have been completely tight-fisted. So the money even flows, you know, it doesn't even flow directly from wherever who's got the biggest pot. So it's just, yeah, it's very interesting being here, watching it all. The last thing that I'd like to ask you is, do you have a chaos crusade for us?

Jonathan:

Yeah, I do. You know what I thought about that question before when, you've asked it before, and it's really difficult for me to answer it without being completely obvious, is that the, my Chaos Crusade is getting people to burn their money

Jolie:

Had some money.

Jonathan:

And I, and getting people, Tom, my, my mission really is to think about how I can get people to burn their money and get people to react to money burning. So that, that's, that is my chaos crusade really. I think that to maybe I'm not naturally a person who likes to aggravate people and and get in their faces, but I think possibly I have to be a little bit more like that in, in what I do. Maybe, I, in the right way, in a in a creative way. So I've got things like, next year, I'm planning to do a 10 K burn for it's all for charity. So the idea is to get charitable donations and only give them if a cer if an equivalent amount of money is burned. And if the money isn't burned, if not enough money's burned, then it doesn't go to charity. so I'm I'm playing around with those ideas which set up that dissonance in people's minds about it. And provoke their provoke their reactions to it and get people talking about it,'cause if they can't burn it let's get'em talking about what it means to burn it. I think people, I

Jolie:

Yeah, I love that.

Jonathan:

in money,

Jolie:

yeah. Yeah. No, totally. And if people are gonna burn it, who are listening how, in terms of holding it as a ritual holding space for it, what if any tips or anything you'd say about how to do, how to go about it.

Jonathan:

Absolutely. Yeah, I, what I would say was, is take it seriously. If I, a little tip I would say is if you's gonna be your first berm, make it a, it doesn't have to be a massive amount of money, but make it, think that's a little bit too much, that's probably the right amount. right there. Get a note and keep it in your pocket and don't spend it on something. Yeah. So go to the pub with your 20 quid or whatever you're gonna burn. And when it comes to you, when you would normally buy around of drinks with it or whatever, don't just hold back, keep that 20 pound in your pocket. Give it a little bit of a life. Yeah. When you come to burn it, please write down the serial number, record it in the record of Burn. We have the record of burn, which is the database of all the money burnt. So seven odd million quid on it and at the moment which includes

Jolie:

Wow.

Jonathan:

the KLF and various historical burns. But yeah. Enter it in the record of Burn. If you would be, if I could encourage people to do that'd be great. But it also, it that, not just for Church of Burn's purposes, but if you record those details, if you record the serial note number, if you look at the note and really examine the note it, it just helps you form an attachment with it. And then when you burn it with a nice candle, do, it, do it in a, in what you would consider a ritualistic way. I would say yeah. And I think personally I would say don't think about it in terms if I burn this money, then I will get this result. I think I I'm not sure. I'm not sure that's the way to do it my, the way that I would do it, but, of their own. but I think if you experience that as, if you can experience it as just a straightforward loss in a ritual way, I think it will, I think it will, the ritual itself will have its own meaning and its own value. You don't need something beyond that. That's the ritual is the thing. The journey is the pilgrimage. That's where you are at with it. And I think for me personally, in my experience, that's the richness of it right there. And, sorry, one last little bit. So yeah, as long as keeping that note. I would go somewhere to do it. So make a little go, go to, if you are on, if you are on a beautiful island, go to walk across and go to a beach and do it. Do something like that where you've put a bit of effort and you've selected a nice, my best burns have come through selecting a nice little spot to burn and making something, not just the ritual, being the tiny little thing that you do with the money and the flame, but the ritual being the whole event around it where you go and do it where it's like a couple of hours out of your life to do this thing. Then that, that's where, that's certainly where I've had amazing experiences, and the kind of your. Your back realign and you can feel the energy flowing through you. Your feet feel rooted on this great big spinning ball of rock. That we're stood on now. So you feel, certainly for me that's how it's worked and it's been it's a wonderful experience, but if you go in thinking I'll have 20 quids worth of money burning experience, you ain't gonna get it.

That was the incredible Reverend Jonathan Harris from the Church of Burn, and I did just have such a visceral reaction to what he was talking about and just, I loved what he said at the end there. I, I cannot wait to go to a church of burn ceremony ritual experience when I'm in England. Next I will be putting that into the diary and I will also be practicing some kind of ritual here in SARC just to. Get the, get the experience flowing.'cause it's something that feels so right in my body and yeah, I can't wait. I'm just, that was such a wonderful conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did so. Ah, just, I don't even know what the words are. It's fascinating to think of money in this way and, and it does do something. It's so, I, I mean, I dunno, I'm sure it must be for everybody. Such a big thing. I mean, it's such a big thing in my life and I'm it is in everybody's, so to look at it and, and I just, this is what I love about, um, subverting reality is these things that are just given rules and given. Behaviors, you know, this is, money is not something you burn. You know, you're not burning money. It's even a say for us to then just flip it on its head. You know, it's like walking backwards down a high street or. You know, sticking all the furniture to the ceiling or something. It's just behaving in a way that doesn't fit with reality. That highlights that it's all made up. That it is all made up, including our relationship to money. So to subvert it or to work with it differently and change that energy is so powerful and it just feels really freeing. That's the word that's coming through. It feels so freeing. And for me. Money's so, um, like a ball and chain, you know, it's confining and restricting that. The thought of just burning, it just feels so freeing. So, yeah, very excited. What a wonderful conversation. That was amazing. Thank you for being here. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did, and I shall speak to you again next week. So, see the.