Nonsense in the Chaos

#64 The House of Broken Bricks; Fiona Williams on honouring the Landscape and a Sense of Identity

• Jolie Rose • Season 2 • Episode 64

Share episode

This week on Nonsense in the Chaos we follow the thread from Somerset to Exeter to meet Fiona Williams, author of House of Broken Bricks and partner of Joe, the builder from episode #58. Joe grew up in Burrowbridge with his twin brother Jason, and it was clear from meeting them how deeply the Levels run in their bones. Fiona carries that same connection, and channels it onto the page with remarkable clarity.

Her novel captures the Somerset Levels with a tenderness that feels tactile. Mud, reeds, light, memory… All held with the same depth of care found in Braiding Sweetgrass. Reading her book had me laughing at the scenes of lost hikers pacing back and forth looking for the footpath (a very familiar experience), and wiping away tears more than once. Her writing is extraordinary, easily some of the finest I’ve encountered. She also talked about her PHD and forthcoming work, in which she traces how folk tales act as living records, shaped by the people who work the land and the land that works on them

Mercury Retrograde played its usual games during recording. A first attempt disappeared into the ether, and the second—this episode—picked up the occasional echo on my voice. I’ve reduced it as much as possible. The conversation still shines, and meeting Fiona was a complete delight.

Settle in for an episode rich with story, landscape and the quiet power of a writer who listens closely to the land beneath her feet.

You can find out more about Fiona's work @fionawilliamswrites

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

Please consider supporting me through patreon.com/JolieRose and like, follow, and review wherever you get your podcasts from. Share about Nonsense in the Chaos far and wide! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Thank you for all your support -x-

The. Welcome to The Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host, Jolie Rose. So I'm back in the studio and back in front of my computer, and today I'm going to be interviewing Fiona Williams, who I'm extremely excited to have finally met. We've had some technical issues when we were recording this evening, which just is Mercury retrograde. I'm just accepting that that's in full swing and that's what's happening. It's okay. We've managed to make the recording and all has worked out well and I'm so chuffed to have finally met Fiona. I've been reading her book, the House of Broken Bricks, which is absolutely brilliant. I highly recommend it. And I found out about Fiona through meeting her partner in a pub in Borough Bridge. We'd just gone up to Borough Mump, which is one of the sacred sites where the energy lines cross, and we went into the King Alfred Pub, which is at the bottom of the Mump Hill, and we met these two builders who actually turned out to be artists and completely woke and not at all like what we'd been encountering up until then. Walking through Cornwall and Devon, where every single pub we walked into, people were talking about immigration, and it was just this like. Buzzword that was on everybody's lips and it felt very toxic and unpleasant. And when we walked into the King Alfred Pub and we, these builders were there, we kind of were just sort of expecting the same old spiel from them. And then they suddenly completely surprised us and were really, fun and brilliant to talk to. And you can go back and listen to one of the earlier podcasts where some of the interview that we did with them was recorded. So it was through Joe talking to us that he told us about Fiona's work. And so I got in touch with her and I'm absolutely delighted that we finally got to connect and talk about her work, which is fascinating. And so without further ado, here is the wonderful Fiona Williams.

Jolie:

So tell me about your book

Fiona:

So the book, for me it's really weird'cause the book feels like a long time ago, but'cause it's kind of came out of. The life that I was living on. The Somerset levels'cause there for a very long time and it was just an exploration of identity and the perception of identity in a rural space. But it was also, I guess a celebration of landscape and a celebration of connecting to, to places that you might not necessarily been born into, but that you feel a deep connection with and how that sense of. Belonging and that love of home can be open to you wherever you live. So I wanted to tie into that and find some way to, to honor the landscape of Somerset, especially the kind of the levels where the story's set, and look at the kind of issues around racial perception and identity in the uk. In a more, in a subtle way. It's a conversation that nobody likes to have and it's, you even in fiction, you're like, how can you talk about this in a way that's palatable and understandable and gentle, but still? Powerful. So I use nature really to help me to discuss it in a kind of subtle way. And I think it's been really successful in terms of I've met so many people like reading events and stuff who live rurally and they've been like, it made them think about things in a completely different way. And to see things from a completely different perspective, which I'm really pleased about. And then I had a couple events even mum in particular in Brixton in London with a group of women who had never lived rurally. It was a completely alien idea to them, and even for them to get that sense of what rural Britain is like and the pros and the cons of it. I think was quite enlightening for them as well. But yeah, it's been a, it's been a ride. That book

Jolie:

Yeah, I mean, did it get published?

Fiona:

It got published. What year are we now? I'm confused. It got published last year, so early last year. Hardback came out in the UK and the US and in Germany last year. But then it was two years in the production line, so I finished writing it three years ago. And then it's quite a long wait before it actually came out in print. But I'm still going and I've just got been I said the other day that there's no more events, I'm done. And then I've just been invited to a festival next year and it's Nope, not done yet. I know it's probably because the conversation in the book is really topical now,

Jolie:

Yes.

Fiona:

think a lot of people that have come to it like now are like, actually, we wanna bring you on to talk about it, because it really chimes with a lot of the things that people are discussing at this moment. So I think the timing just was just a good coincidence, really.

Jolie:

Yeah,

Fiona:

Yeah.

Jolie:

that's it, because it does just take such a long time, doesn't it, for a book to come out and

Fiona:

It takes ages.

Jolie:

you've kind of moved on by then.

Fiona:

You've moved on or you've the worst thing for me was I've been halfway through, I think it was a two year wait and halfway through I kept thinking maybe I'd made it all up and there was no public it wasn't gonna happen, or that they like, maybe just dropped it secretly. So yeah, it's a weird experience, but. Yeah, trying to write again now, but

Jolie:

Yes.

Fiona:

so busy.

Jolie:

so you're doing your PhD, but

Fiona:

I'm doing my PhD.

Jolie:

a book attached to it then? So what's the

Fiona:

So the PhD, I'm gonna, I'm doing, I'm looking at folk tales, so I'm actually writing some modern folk tales and hopefully there's gonna be, obviously in print and I'm hopefully gonna do some some oral, some audio ones as well with the hope. So you get that real kind of oral transmission. And one of them was on radio four, which was really nice to hear it narrated on the radio. It wasn't me that narrated it an actress, but it was wonderful to hear it. And then I read it, it was, it's actually a photo. The original tale was from Watch It. And I wrote a retelling and then I got to actually read the retelling in Watch it in the, which was amazing for part of their literary festival. That was a really great experience to read it out loud in the place where it set, where the original one was set and feel that I'd added. I'd added to something like a kind of magical moment of overlap in history of the tale being repeated in that space, which was really quite nice. It was really good. It was a really cool experience. Yeah.

Jolie:

Whereabouts? Watch it.

Fiona:

So watch, its North Somerset, not far from Minehead going along the coast up that way. Yeah,

Jolie:

Excellent.

Fiona:

so

Jolie:

so you've got a connection to this land that Somerset like

Fiona:

I have, I've been kind, yeah.

Jolie:

in the book it does come through so much. It's beautiful. And because I obviously know it from walking out, I'm, I can really feel it as well. And I have a, a, a, you know. Similar situation in that I've moved to this tiny little island s in the channel island, and I

Fiona:

I live here.

Jolie:

whose family have been here 500 years.

Fiona:

Wow.

Jolie:

different culture. Yeah. It's mad. Like, and it's

Fiona:

And it's such a mad place.

Jolie:

is not, it's not England. It's not the same

Fiona:

Yeah. It's different.

Jolie:

kind of let it go that it is because it's not, and yeah, just so many things that I'm like, oh, that's weird. I'm not quite comfortable with that. Okay. That's. You know, it's just the way it is here. It's quite backwards in many ways. And yeah, it's been interesting to sort of be accepted into it, especially'cause I'm a bit of a, you know, brighty, liberal oddball.

Fiona:

I bet they love you. Yeah.

Jolie:

yeah, just about. I'm a bit confused, but yeah. I've works on them,

Fiona:

It's strange when you come into a new place. Yeah, I've been going to for, to and pro to Somerset for a long time, like over 25 years, so I know it really well. And then had a long stretch of living there. And I'm in Devon now, which is strange as well, but. I think I've just got so used to being in the west country, I don't really, funny enough, when I go back to London now, London feels alien to me even though I grew up there and I know my way around still, but I go back and it's very much, I feel really transient there. I feel like a tourist there. And when I'm back down here, it's oh yeah, I know how this works.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Fiona:

Good and bad. I know how it works. So it feels like home. Yeah. It's really strange how it seeps in over time.

Jolie:

Yeah,

Fiona:

Yeah.

Jolie:

And I, I very, I mean, when I walk, it feels so much like that's what we're meant to be doing. Like I, everything in my body says that we're meant to be hunter gathering and we should be on the move. And that us being stuck in a place feels so wrong and just, yeah, arguing and all the stuff that comes from just being fixed in a place and it's like, we should be doing this,

Fiona:

I think the problem with being

Jolie:

and

Fiona:

when you are fixed in a place, it's a difficult one because I do understand the importance of heritage and how you said your partner's family have been in on SARC for 500 years and so when you've been in a place I. Generation after generation, you can't help but feel like you and that land are one. And the idea of someone taking it or changing it, it's quite hard. But then I think that's the problem. If you're too long in one place, you get possessive. Over that space. And I think it's, I can see how it happens in terms of how we are as a species, but I think that we should be at a stage now where we should be really quite joyful about the fact that we can move and you can experience more. I'd love to, I money in kids allowed, I would move all the time because I think that. For a life to feel full, you should experience as much as you can. Not just the same all the time, generation after generation, but then I know there's lots of people that would argue against that. And I can see the joy in that as well when you've got there's lots of cultures where they just don't move and the land is integral to their identity, and I get that. But I'm quite glad that I don't have that. I'm not in that situation that I can, because I've lived in a lot, I've lived in so many places now. That I don't even, yeah. In different countries, different cities here and lived on a boat for a long time floating about and yeah, I love movement. I like moving around and each time I move, it's like a new chapter in a book.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Fiona:

feels like a new me, a new life, new everything. Everything changes. And I think that's really, a lot of people don't ever get to experience that, which I think is a shame because it's really good fun.

Jolie:

Yeah, totally. I've always been

Fiona:

I

Jolie:

spirit and I've enjoyed moving around, but I also do appreciate

Fiona:

community.

Jolie:

like

Fiona:

Yeah.

Jolie:

of the future community's

Fiona:

We're gonna need it. We are really gonna need it. I think so. And that's the only thing when you that's the negative of it. When you move around so much, you can feel a bit lost sometimes and a bit lonely. Even though you've got people around you, there's that sense of loneliness.'cause you're not embedded in a, in the community. But then. The funny thing, I remember when I moved to Somerset the village that I moved to, I hadn't lived there before. It didn't take long, it really didn't. Within like a couple of months, that I knew all my neighbors, everyone was so kind, and my mom passed away. Literally when I think like about. It was about a month after I moved in. Even left, didn't actually even get to come and see the new, see the house and my neighbors. I didn't know them at all apart from just a wave in the street and looks of lots of curious glances to see me pottering down the lane. But everyone was amazing. Cakes and blankets knitted and just, yeah. So I think, I do think we underestimate ourselves sometimes in that. We're sociable creatures. We can build a community pretty quick, quicker than I think we realize. I think people don't realize that you can do it. So I'm trying, I'm an Exeter now and I'm literally in the process now. I'm building a new one. It's making friends, having connections, trying to feel like you belong in a space again. But yeah, it's a challenge. But I do enjoy it.

Jolie:

yeah, Excellent. I met your partner at the pub in, at King Alfred, and he told me all about your work and was really excited to chat to us. And we were just so excited to meet someone that wasn't sitting there whispering about immigration in the corner, which was what had happened in every pub from Cornwall to Devon. And it was just the first pub where suddenly these two builders, what, what Their names

Fiona:

Joe and Justin. Justin,

Jolie:

Yeah. Chatting, sniffing, snuff,

Fiona:

Yeah. They do love that snuff. Yeah, I know. You gotta see Christmas Day. The whole family even my son's been indoctrinated into it. It's oh God, please don't do it. I've never done it. It's just horrible.

Jolie:

doing that anywhere else. That's

Fiona:

And it's like wasabi or something.'cause they do it and then they like they're in like absolute agony. It's like burning through their face. I'm like no. It's all right. I'll miss that. I'll skip that one.

Jolie:

It is so funny. It was just such a funny thing. And then, but yeah, like, like I say, the whole of Cornwall and Devon, it was every single pub. There's a scene in Sandman Neil Gaiman's series

Fiona:

yeah.

Jolie:

novels and Series where every hundred years this character keeps going back to the same pub. And every a hundred years, the same conversations are happening with people going on about the pool tax and things are changing and blah, blah, blah. And like, not in my day and rah. it just

Fiona:

And it just felt like that.

Jolie:

we went into, they were talking about immigration and it was like, oh my God, what is wrong with this country? And, and the George Crosses had all gone up and, and it did feel quite scary. You know, Cornwall and Devon felt scary. And then we got to King Alfred and we walked in and there's these two builders doing snuff and we're just like, oh God, here we go. And then they were like absolutely hilarious and

Fiona:

Yeah,

Jolie:

woke and talking about Chava Edin and we're just like. On a mission to Yeah. Stop,

Fiona:

they're on a mission.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Fiona:

Yeah, they are. It's quite funny.

Jolie:

I'm totally on board with that. like Luten for example, we were quite nervous about going into Luten just'cause it's got such a bad rep for being a

Fiona:

yeah.

Jolie:

city.

Fiona:

haven't been looting for years. Oh my God. I'm, yeah, it was

Jolie:

it was run down and, but the town center actually wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be. But yes, it was definitely a, a deprived area, but we had more smiles and more questions and curiosity and,

Fiona:

really.

Jolie:

my God, that's so inspiring than we had anywhere else.

Fiona:

How bizarre. Oh, I haven't been to looting in about, oh, I know. About 30 years.

Jolie:

Wow. Yeah.'cause I'd done this walk before and I went up and over rather than going through it and it felt wrong'cause I've done another walk where you go up the country and we go through Manchester and Stoke on Trent and like Stoke on Trent's a really rundown city. But again, that's one of my favorite places to walk through'cause people are just so genuine and, you know. People are really protective of the land that they've got because they're fighting industrial estates being built on them and you know, and it's their space. And yeah, Luton people were just so friendly. I'll hold the cards up. You say to stop and there'll probably be a bit of a delay, but we'll get whatever

Fiona:

That's fine.

Jolie:

get. So if you tell me when to stop.

Fiona:

Stop.

Jolie:

Okay. So this is swiftness. Let me see if I can get you to see. So it's quite a rainbowy image

Fiona:

Okay. Okay. I can see

Jolie:

Yeah, so it's the eight of wands, so it's got the kind of fiery energy and it's swiftness. So yeah. Does that mean anything to you?

Fiona:

Itness eight of. Funnily enough, it might do actually, because when they were in this portal moment and everything's supposed to be accelerating, so I think we're probably gonna see a lot of things happening quite quickly over the next few months. And I can always sense that there's like movement in everything and just on, ground level up. And even in my own thinking, it's like things move so fast through my brain at the moment. So it's trying to find ways to ground myself and not get caught in the rush of overthinking and doing and feeling too much so that you can actually stop and process and take time and integrate what you've seen and learn and understood before moving on. So I think swiftness is good, but it's something to be aware of and to. Not get carried away by the movement of it. Make sure that while you are moving fast, you're still grounded. That's something that I'm trying to do at the moment.'cause I feel like so much is happening, so many decisions being made, and I'm just like literally bouncing from one thing to another. That real swift almost drag and fly movement of bang, and it's stop slow down. Ground myself, pay attention before moving on to the next thing. So I think that's possibly my own life. Does it mean anything to you?

Jolie:

Yeah, well, I mean it does'cause for me, like on the pilgrimages we see so many rainbows which is partly because we're outside and you just, you know, see more things the outside, but also,'cause it was quite wet when we walked this autumn, but there's such a inspiring and amazing thing to be seeing, especially when

Fiona:

Especially when they

Jolie:

and hope and,

Fiona:

Yeah.

Jolie:

all the things that they've gone on to mean, you know, the LGBT and, the NHS and

Fiona:

Feels like a very open

Jolie:

Got this really

Fiona:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jolie:

feel to it. And I feel like with the swiftness there's an element of wanting to. Be free and moving in the ways that we're talking about of moving around and, and experiencing the world in a, a kind of more transient way.

Fiona:

I guess that worries if you get swept up in it, you won't see the rainbows. You just, that you, there is that sense of just see the beauty stop. Make sure that during that, all that movement you are noting what enjoying it and being grateful for it, and thankful for it and really seeing it for the beauty of what it is as you are moving through. And that's something I think I'm having to really train myself to not just get caught in the movement, enjoying the movement.'cause I've got so much to do and the Brain's on fire and I'm rushing about, but remembering to notice the scenery as I'm running past.

Jolie:

Yeah, totally.

Fiona:

Yeah.

Jolie:

One of the women that I walked with stopped and smelled every rose we passed, and I

Fiona:

Oh, bless her.

Jolie:

It was like she really did stop and smell the roses, and I was like, yeah, that's a really good thing to do. And now Do

Fiona:

I've been, I found myself because I walk the dogs off. I've got a lovely dog walker across, like through woods and stuff, and I've been finding myself, it's gonna sound really weird, finding myself sniffing moss and stuff at the moment

Jolie:

Mm.

Fiona:

because they all smell really different and it's ooh. Some of them smell like seaweed, some smell like earth, some smell like real decay. Some smell really weird, like something gone off. it's been quite fascinating sniffing things, which is just a bit,'cause it's, I, I've been eating stuff and smelling stuff, pay attention to the details as you're moving past them. Yeah.

Jolie:

Yeah. 100%. I love that. I'm definitely gonna, my, me and my partner both love Moss. We're really obsessed with it. So yeah, gonna get him to start sniffing it with me. That's brilliant. Excellent. Okay, we'll do another card.

Fiona:

Ah, that was the one I wanted as well.

Jolie:

Cool. That's the Prince of Cups, and this one's got a really, so he's like drinking out of a pool. He's kind of a weird. He's like on the back of a

Fiona:

Back.

Jolie:

it's like a chariot, but he is on the back of a bird, the prince,

Fiona:

We've got birds and a chariot and a cup and water. There's a lot there. Then'cause the chariot's all about, oh my god, you got your birds. So you got your messengers and you got your chariot, which is like sitting in your driving seat and directing the pathway of your own life. You got your cup, which is your abundance, and your water is. I guess it's the flow of it all again, isn't it? And tapping into that flow

Jolie:

and,

Fiona:

imagination.

Jolie:

the folk stuff you're talking about. I feel is very A water place, that kind of subconscious inner world soup that we are all part of. And I always feel like folk especially comes from that place. It's, it's

Fiona:

it does.

Jolie:

dreams are from and all that kind of Yeah. Archetypes and yeah.

Fiona:

an interesting one. Yeah, I like that.

Jolie:

You are driving your chariot with your book and your PhD

Fiona:

Oh

Jolie:

that

Fiona:

yeah it's strange'cause I've always been, I grew up in real classic kind of British Jamaican household. I was born in 75 so childhood of the early eighties and very much like you are very much. Steered that Caribbean way to be very much steered by your parents. Even down to what I chose to do at university. I want to be a dancer. My mom was having none of it. She's not chance, you'll end up being a waitress all your life and off you go and do medicine. And I basically messed up my A levels on purpose'cause didn't wanna do medicine. And ended up going to do did to a science degree. Just because to keep her from, to keep her happy. And just because I was quite interested in David Attenborough and I thought, oh, might be, but it was nothing like I imagined it to be. It was very dull. And I've only, it's taken me this long and I, I was 50 this year. It's taken me this long to drive my own chariot

Jolie:

Hmm.

Fiona:

and not be governed by. Expectation of society or expectation of parents, or even expectations that I thought were mine, but now I've actually examined them. They weren't mine. They're still based on convention and what you're told, oh, you've got to do this. You go off and you do this, and then you get married and then you get your house and all these things that you tick list. And I've only, I've finally gone actually. What do I what do I actually want to do? How do I wanna do this? And at first making mistakes.'cause you're not used to driving unaided

Jolie:

Yeah.

Fiona:

and Yeah. And you're like, what the hell am I doing? This has all gone wrong. But then that picking yourself up again and going, okay, that didn't work. Let's try a different pathway. Let's try that. Let's try this. And so that's been quite a new. It's something I'm doing now. It's a new experience of having that faith in your own drive and ability to go forward and not be, we were talking about it earlier, not being. Not being guided by fear either. Pushing the fear aside and making sure that you're being, you're guiding yourself from a place deeper than that. That's like coming from your core. That's been quite a new thing for me, but I'm trying really hard to embrace. But it's like all things you're learning, it's. New lessons in learning to drive my own life. Yeah.

Jolie:

Mm. That's It? that's

Fiona:

fun.

Jolie:

want, isn't it?

Fiona:

It's all you want, but it's not easy. It's not an easy thing to do, I think in modern society.'cause there's so many messages. We're fed from so many sources and now with social media about this is how you should feel, this is what you should be doing, this is what you should have, this is what you should look like, what you should want. And I think hearing your own voice through all that noise. It's incredibly hard. Like really hard and not something that you can just do overnight. A chem doing it. It's, I think it's a real kind of work in progress thing of drowning out the noise and listening to the inner voice, and yet letting that steer the chariot. Yeah

Jolie:

it is hard. I like I

Fiona:

managed to

Jolie:

Live

Fiona:

live.

Jolie:

years as an artist, which was amazing cause I managed to do it. But it was because of the support of the benefit system in the uk. And then it's getting harder and harder. And now I am, when I moved here in 2020, it just, it changed

Fiona:

It changed everything. Now I'm basically barmaid,

Jolie:

of ended

Fiona:

so I ended up finding myself in this really

Jolie:

situation.

Fiona:

But I also

Jolie:

wanna

Fiona:

don't wanna,

Jolie:

where I'm like doing a full-time job. don't wanna

Fiona:

I don't wanna do,

Jolie:

just'cause I

Fiona:

no,

Jolie:

do it. I want to carry

Fiona:

what do they say? So what? It's time. Time rich, money poor. Is that the phrase? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jolie:

I'm holding on. I'm holding on.

Fiona:

I've just stupidly gone into the arts at a point where there's no jobs, no money, no funding, no nothing. And I'm like,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Fiona:

really? Is now the time? But apparently I'm doing it. So off we go.

Jolie:

Exactly. And the universe will take you and yeah, it will look after you.

Fiona:

It will look after me. Yeah.

Jolie:

do. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, that's a really good card. I like that one.

If you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting me on Patreon, which is patreon.com/jolie Rose. I put out a lot of free content and do as much work as I can in the world so that people can access it who are on low incomes, and I just want my stuff to be as accessible as possible, and so I do. Fortnightly articles in the ZI Press and I do fortnightly moon readings and moon ceremonies, uh, which are on YouTube or over Zoom that anyone can just join and it's all free to do. Uh, this podcast comes out every week and is free. And just generally, I'm, I'm often putting things out there that people can come along and do for free, and. In return. If you enjoy the work that I do and you get something out of it, then if you are up for giving me some financial support, then that just will be amazing'cause it means that I can continue doing this. I am existing on very low income and doing this as an artist in a world that is not really looking after artists very much at the moment. I really appreciate all the help that I get, and anything you can do to support me is just so appreciated. If you're able to just do some sort of monthly subscription, that'd be amazing. And yeah, hope you're enjoying what I'm putting out there. Thank you ever so much for being here. I love making this podcast and on with the show.

Jolie:

Excellent. Okay, and we'll

Fiona:

Okay. And.

Jolie:

one

Fiona:

I am gonna do the one right at the end by your hat, by Keep going. Oh yeah, that one.

Jolie:

That one. Brilliant.

Fiona:

last one? Yeah.

Jolie:

Strength. That's a good card.

Fiona:

Oh.

Jolie:

Yeah, beautiful. So that's got the sun at the top, the moon, and then it's nine of wands. So it's a fiery energy again, but it's strength. So where are

Fiona:

And you've got that nice balance as well between kind of both. Both energies there. Sun and moon, isn't it? Which is quite nice. My strength, I think is coming from, I don't actually know the answer to that question. Where does it come from? I say I inherited some of it. I think my mom was a really strong woman, so I think I learned how to be strong quite early.'cause she was always very strong. She had quite a tough ride of it really. And but still managed to do everything and look after everyone and have a really successful career and still cope even though behind the scenes she was actually having a really tough time. And so I think that's taught me that inner strength and that you how to keep going even when you don't really want to keep going. And then I think a lot of strength as well just comes from, if we go back to the kind of previous stuff, it's just that kind of. Not getting bogged down by things. So your strength comes quite naturally. It's every time you ever a bit low, you recharge it by sniffing moss and walking the land and going outside and feeling the sun and seeing the moon, and just breathing it all in and. Then you reach, it's it, often I walk my dogs a lot and I, we are really lucky'cause we're right on the edge of Exeter and I can walk out and it's just beautiful. And I love it when I go out and sometimes I go out and it's a rainy day and it's really gray and I get to the top of the hill and you can see down to Topham and the estuary and it's beautiful. And then the sun always comes out, even if it only comes out for. Five seconds. I'm like, oh, there it is. And it's like a recharge moment. And I'm just, and I stand there, I'm like a crazy person and I just like oh yeah, it's like literally recharge me. And then off I go and I come back and I feel recharged and then I've got enough strength to get through the dishes, fight with the kids about homework.

Jolie:

Yeah,

Fiona:

I'm teaching at the moment as well, so you know, there's so much to do that if I didn't have these moments of recharge, I think my strength would run out quite quickly. And so I think I use nature quite a lot to recharge and get, regain a connection to the strength that I know I have inside me.'cause I think you can forget how strong you are. Especially when life's really tough sometimes and you feel quite weak and fragile within it, I think it's really easy to forget that no you can do this. You're actually really strong. And it's when I go off out on my own for walks, I find that then I can reconnect with that.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Fiona:

And then I can come back and I can sit down and I'm like, I'm calm again. It's what mess is it that I have to clean up now? Let me just do this and move on to the next thing. And I think that's, it's really funny'cause Joe's always saying to me that, I fall apart when it's tiny things. Like really tiny things. Like I can't find my umbrella. And it's oh my God, I'm having a crisis and not going out. But then if something really big happens, like something really shockingly big, someone. Death in the family, something really big. I'm fine, I'm calm. It's off we go. Let's deal with this. Let's move through this experience and deal with what needs being dealt with. So I think that's when I think my strength comes into its own when the big things come. Yeah.

Jolie:

Yeah. No, that I, I'm quite similar to that though. That's, I'm like that. am awful if I lose something and I'm

Fiona:

Oh God. Nightmare from a carkey today, and it was like I was having an absolute meltdown and it was like exactly where I left it. But anyway, yeah.

Jolie:

And like what, how was it a book that, I mean, I mean, it felt like it was a very personal book because I write sort of auto fiction personal stuff as well, and I changed people's names and everything, but it's basically my life that I'm writing about, and

Fiona:

I

Jolie:

just wondered like

Fiona:

just wonder

Jolie:

that felt in terms of the book coming out and just

Fiona:

I think in a way, a lot of it actually I think what made it probably easy is a lot of it isn't my experience because I guess Tess, in the book, because she's, a black woman like me coming from Southeast London, Jamaican heritage, I really wanted to move her into the space. Like without any knowledge of the space. Whereas for me moving to the Southwest, I already knew it. I wasn't going into, I wasn't, it wasn't like moving into the unknown. I've, I've had a lot of my drinking years who have been in Taunton that was staggering around leaky bas at random hours. So it's it's not an it's been a very different experience for me being in the Southwest. But I think I. And what happens to the family is not something that I experienced. So I think I had that degree of separation to be able to step away and go. It really is fiction. The only real truth in the novel is the house. The house is a house that I did live in which I loved as well. And it was set into a river bank and dampen really old. It's got like wonderful history attached to it, and that was nice. And you do see there's bits where you can see where work's been done on it years ago. And you can see where the fingerprints of people have been left like over the last 200 years. And that idea that you've added to that space, your kind of energy's been in that space. And I think it's quite nice to celebrate that in the book and to celebrate, the mixture of the cultures that I've grown up in.'cause I've grown up in, London culture. Then Caribbean, London culture, which is different again, and then a rural, a very rural existence in Somerset. And to bring those three worlds together in a way that might not have been seen before.

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Fiona:

think, and how they merge and where I think what's quite fun is, where the similarities are. People think that, oh, it couldn't be the same, this world's apart, it was quite fun bringing in bits of my, I did bring in some of my mum's experience of growing up on a farm in Jamaica and farming and it's like her life wasn't that dissimilar to rural life here. I think people don't realize how many similarities there actually really are. We get so caught up in kind of racial difference, and we assume that cultural differences are like poles apart and they're actually really not. It might be that the food grown is slightly different, but the whole relationship to the land and the food and the seasons is not that different at all. And so it was quite nice to. Explore that through fiction and share it? I think so. Yeah. It wasn't, I didn't find that part stressful. Some of the book took work, like I had to really think about, okay, how am I gonna convey this in a way that people can really understand it and really see what I'm saying? And then some parts of the book, especially the Sunny Bits, I didn't have to work on a tool. They just came lucid moments of just like stream of consciousness stuff where I didn't even know where it came from. I'm just like, but whoever gave it to me, I'm like, please give me some more. I need more.

Jolie:

Yeah. Amazing. And it is, you really capture the land beautifully. And you know, I've just walked through it and so I'm feeling nostalgic for it. And you are sending me right back there when I'm

Fiona:

It's beautiful landscape and it's a really wonderful place to watch the seasons turning around and tracking, tracking time through, through plants and the changing in kind of the way the hedges changed, the way the sky changes and what the water does.'cause some said, the water all over the place and when the floods come, what the rivers are doing. When you live there, you can, you learn to read these things. You watch the river'cause the river was behind the house and you look at it and you're like, it's doing this today. What does that mean? Yeah. And you learn to read these things, which I think is I didn't appreciate that growing up in London, how you read the landscape and it tells you stuff about the weather that's coming or situation that's coming, or the floodings gonna be coming soon, or the droughts coming soon and you're gonna have to host pipe bands coming soon. You can preempt a lot of things if you watch the landscape, and I think that's something I didn't ever. Ever appreciate growing up. And so it was really lovely to be in Somerset and learn how to read things. And I think that's something I've taken with me now I'm in Devon and I go out, we just went out looking for chestnuts the other day and Sun Saturday we were in Dartmore pottering around. And it's just like reading the landscapes become something that I don't even think about anymore, which I didn't, that wasn't something that I learned when I was younger.

Jolie:

Yeah. No, totally. And so

Fiona:

What would as a chaos princip?

Jolie:

for people

Fiona:

Oh, see, I liked the idea'cause I thought, it's all about words here and stuff and the written word I was going to challenge people to have a day of silence.

Jolie:

Ooh

Fiona:

complete silence, and that you could only communicate through writing. In as few words as possible just to see what words, if you only could communicate with a few as few words as possible what word would you, what words would you choose?'cause it would force you to stop and think about your word choices and how you're gonna convey whatever it is or whether you just don't need to say anything, whether sometimes talking's unnecessary and it's just not needed. So yeah,

Jolie:

Love it.

Fiona:

a day of silence.

Jolie:

A day of silence is a great idea. I,

Fiona:

Complete silence,

Jolie:

it's the only way I've found to actually recharge is to not talk. So we, if we do days off, because it's such an extended period of exercise, if you have a day off, it's, it doesn't help. It actually just makes it harder to get moving again the next day.

Fiona:

stiff and stuff.

Jolie:

long enough to. Really, you know, I'm still knackered now like it's a week later. Like I, you know, it will take me time to recuperate from it. And so not talking for a day is the best way to actually recharge.'cause it puts quite a lot of stress on your

Fiona:

Of stress body. It

Jolie:

And

Fiona:

does. And on your brain. Yeah.

Jolie:

You really

Fiona:

Yeah. And I think if your brain's not having to talk all the time, it can focus on other things

Jolie:

Hmm.

Fiona:

internal things, bodily things. It's just the energy's not being directed towards your mouth. So yeah, I think that would be quite an interesting experiment to try out.

Jolie:

so good. you gonna do it?

Fiona:

I'm such a chatter box though. I dunno if I'd cope in like maybe an hour. No,

Jolie:

experiment. I mean, it'd be really

Fiona:

Yeah.

Jolie:

I, I used to lose my voice quite a lot. I've got quite a strained voice and I would be at parties and I'd lose my voice and I'd spend the whole night having to

Fiona:

Oh God.

Jolie:

for interpretive dance

Fiona:

But it's quite it's quite expressive. I think trying to figure out other ways of communication is quite, it is quite an expressive thing to do. Like how can I communicate this if I can't talk? Yeah.

Jolie:

yeah.

Fiona:

it be loads of fun? I might have to try. I dunno if my kids would be on board with it. They'd get fed up pretty quickly.

Jolie:

afternoon or something. Yeah. I think I'm well up for this. This is really good. let you know if I managed to pull off

Fiona:

If you manage to

Jolie:

of time.

Fiona:

manage.

Jolie:

And just briefly

Fiona:

Briefly talk

Jolie:

about your

Fiona:

again about your PhD.

Jolie:

in case we did get cut off at the

Fiona:

Yeah, so I'm looking, so I'm basically looking, I'm looking at the Folk Hotel, the British Folk Hotel. I'm looking at it from two, two areas really. One, I'm looking at it from like how the Folk Hotel evolves.'cause we're seeing, we're seeing a lot of kind of folkloric fiction come through publishing at the moment. And there's this, I, this I guess. Surprise, I should say that I don't think all people would notice that or know that folk tales tend to arise through the populace when we're in periods of political and social unrest or where something's changing within society. You get like a real surge in folk. Not just not lit, not just literature, but dance and song and, we just, there's just a reemergence of it. When there's that real need for a kind of stability and a sense of like national identity, so I'm examining the kind of the trajectory of the folk hotel. I'm arguing that what we're seeing now come through, we, again, a lot of kind of folkloric short stories. It's, people will go, oh, that's a folk hotel and this is like contemporary fiction that's mimicking a folk tale. Or, just adapting. And my argument that it isn't, these are our folk tales, because a hundred years from now, 200 years from now, if we make it to that point. We need to record. It's like a diary of the nation. We still need to keep recording the stories of the folk, because the future will need to look back along the whole line of history, not just back to like 12th century folk tales or 18th century folk tales. It doesn't stop the folk continue. And then we're getting, coming through, kind of multicultural British folkloric fiction now. And I, you already know that's, people are gonna be like, oh no, this is like appropriation. It's m, it's like tainting the purity of something that's considered like a real kind of symbol of cultural heritage. And the argument is, if you look back, a lot of the really old tales. Multiculturalism has always been here, and it's always been captured in the stories. And so what we're seeing coming through now is exactly what we're supposed to see. The tail is actually connected to the land as well as the people, and it's the people that walk the land, whoever they are. And so it's new people come in and become. Caught into the British population, they become part of the folk. We all are. And so the tales we tell about us are multicultural because it's always been a multicultural nation. And I think a lot of people just don't understand or appreciate that. And I think there was a big gap in, I think the problem we've got is. It's that issue of skin color. It's like the folk tales considered a very white symbol. And it's not, it's a symbol of people that live here. That's it. It's so anyone that lives here, it's part of that collective and part of the folk. And so that's the argument in the critical side of my PhD. And then the creative side is I'm writing some new folk tales.

Jolie:

It's

Fiona:

Hopefully gonna perform them as well.'cause I really want them to be not just in print, but to honor the oral tradition and release them. It's almost like you release the tale into the ether and, hope that someone remembers it or retells it and you've added to that whole cycle. And it's really interesting to read through all the rich tales because you know each read telling of a tale. If you think like some of the really early tales, if you can imagine how many times that tale's been retold over like. 200 years, every time it's told, it's a cultural kind of snapshot at that day, on that moment. Because whoever the storyteller is, they'll bring new elements into their retelling based on who they are and their life experience, who their audience is. We're getting feminist folk tales, getting queer folk tales. Everyone brings in elements of themselves. And if you see the changes in the retellings, you can really track our cultural evolution as a nation. I think it's fascinating. I really do. And so it's, yeah, it's been a great, it's been quite a political PhD. I didn't know it was gonna be quite as political when I started it as it's turned out to be. But yeah, it's been, especially with what's going on at the moment. Yeah. But it's fun. I've learned a lot about Britain. And Britain's history and how it's been recorded entails, and how much we aren't taught at school, how much it doesn't, how much, how we, the history that we're taught at school is so cherry picked, are we gonna learn about this aspect and that aspect. And there's so much before and in between that just isn't covered that I wish was covered. Because I think a lot of the. Views of circulating now wouldn't be like this if we knew the history of the nation. If we really knew it, I think it wouldn't be like it is now.

Jolie:

Yeah, I fully agree with that. I work at a tutor reenactment.

Fiona:

Ien

Jolie:

working there since I was 10, and so I am performing yeah, in Suffolk. I'm performing these moments. I know it's well cute and I love it. And we still do it. We still do it. And yeah, for years it was like, you know, this weird sort of geeky thing that we did. And then in recent years, because of how everything's going, we've just been very smug. We'd be like, well, we know how to do things.

Fiona:

Yeah, because you've, yeah, I think it's,

Jolie:

butter

Fiona:

yeah, and there's loads of really interesting things that, we should be passing down and we're just not, which is really sad. It's really sad. There's some, everyone gets so fixated on negatives all the time. This is negative. That's negative. They are negative. This situation's negative, and it's what if we just stopped and just said for the next five years, we're not allowed to talk to notice anything negative. We're supposed to always just notice a positive in things. It'd be really interesting to experiment, to see socially what, how much we would change as a country, as a nation to. If we notice the positive things

Jolie:

And

Fiona:

And not ampl Yeah. And not amplified negative things so much so that it completely smothers everything. That's good. Yeah. It's quite,

Jolie:

It's the same here. They literally, it's just negative. Negative, and you're

Fiona:

it's negative. I, it is. Yeah it's really quite sad.'cause I think we, we don't realize how lucky we actually are here. We're not in the middle of a war. We can all nip to the supermarket or order food off Deliveroo. We're living in a really, quite comfortable, even if, even though times are hard and money's hard and prospects are hard, we're actually still really fortunate in this country. And there's still enough to go round that, yeah.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Fiona:

it makes me nervous'cause it makes me think that if people are this worried now, when things do get hard'cause they will, especially if we consider like climate change and what's happening when things really do get hard, it's like, how are you gonna cope then if you're worried about how things are now?

Jolie:

yeah, yeah.

Fiona:

Yeah. How are you gonna cope with that? It's not, it's too soon to be worrying. It's too soon to be stressing out. And spreading hate and anger. It's just chill and enjoy it,'cause we're one of the lucky generations that still can go off and travel and walk and enjoy things and sit out in a pub garden and on a Sunday afternoon and relax with family and friends. It's, the day might come where those things just don't happen anymore.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Fiona:

so yeah, I think people don't appreciate it. They're too busy caught up. And that's where social media, I think doesn't help'cause it amplifies things in such a way that it can fill someone's whole field of vision. And you're like, yeah it's really sad. It makes me sad. Yeah.

Jolie:

Yeah. so

Fiona:

Yeah.

Jolie:

part of the Chaos Crusades. Be quiet and appreciate what you've got.

Fiona:

Appreciate what you got. Yeah. Yeah. Notice,

Jolie:

It's

Fiona:

notice the scenery.

Jolie:

Yeah. Stop and smell

Fiona:

Yeah. Stop and notice the scenery, and then you'll see things, yeah. That you just, that are just wonderful. You're really lucky to be able to see,

Jolie:

I wouldn't be able to not walk now.'cause the year when I didn't walk, I did just sit at home and, and ate and drank and just wasn't healthy. And it's

Fiona:

and it's not just a help, it's like not seeing my mom or having that projection of

Jolie:

needing sort of going

Fiona:

it's all going home. It's.

Jolie:

a deeper home

Fiona:

Deeper home than just

Jolie:

Christmas or something. It's that need to

Fiona:

that need to be fully

Jolie:

the

Fiona:

immersed in the landscape

Jolie:

out every

Fiona:

out. Every day we'll

Jolie:

a

Fiona:

watch a season change

Jolie:

just,

Fiona:

it's just, it's such deep

Jolie:

Yeah. It hits in

Fiona:

hits.

Jolie:

place

Fiona:

It really does.

Jolie:

do it now, it feels wrong.

Fiona:

And there's so many people that have never experienced it or have walked through it and have not noticed it. It's that lack of curiosity and lack of paying attention

Jolie:

yeah.

Fiona:

to things. Not paying, not, yeah, not paying attention to the screen or to the voices and the noise, but paid attention to the land and the beauty that's all around all the time. Even in the most urban spaces, there's still beauty everywhere. I think people just are so busy. There's that, I guess that swiftness, again, they're so busy with the drudgery of life'cause it is hard that they just don't notice that there's so much to be really thankful for all the time every day.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Fiona:

Yeah.

Jolie:

Yeah. See

Fiona:

We'll keep trying. See the rainbows.

Jolie:

Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure to

Fiona:

Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you.

Jolie:

you as well. It was so wonderful. So do my love to Joe and

Fiona:

will do. He is downstairs somewhere.

Jolie:

Excellent. I've nearly finished your book. I'm really looking forward to

Fiona:

Oh.

Jolie:

it. It's been such a brilliant read. So yeah, it's really brought me back to the space and I've really

Fiona:

Oh, that's

Jolie:

so

Fiona:

please. Thank you. Thank you so much.

So that's the awesome Fiona Williams one. Absolute joy. It was to get to know her and to talk to her because I've been loving her book. So the House of Broken Bricks, definitely download that on Audible or buy a copy of it. It's a really good Christmas present idea. It's just such a brilliant read and has captured a landscape that I have a huge. Love for, it's one of the places where the energy lines come through really strong. So I really feel the Mary line along the riverbanks of this part of the walk. And it's as you approach borough mump and then going from borough mump towards Glastonbury, it's just so mythical and magical and steeped in history. And yeah, it's a very rich landscape and she's really captured that in her book and you can tell that it's infected her. Affected her in the way that it has myself as well. And so from being back home, I can transport myself back to this landscape that I really have a, a deep passion for. And yeah, it's, it's a wonderful story to read and, absolutely interesting in terms of the human aspect of it and being an outsider living in these very traditional rural landscapes that are foreign to all of us. You know, I mean, unless you are from that kind of. Upbringing. Most people grow up in towns and cities and and not exposed to that kind of world. And it does remind me quite a lot of living in Sark and the culture that's here. It's got this very land connected rural culture that is so different to being in Brighton. And you know, living in London and Berlin and all the other places that I've lived. It's just a completely different reality. And yeah, so she's captured all of that brilliantly. And yeah, I've got some other fantastic people connected to the pilgrimage that I'm looking forward to interviewing and other writers as well, who are their works. Uh. Inspired by the land and their connection to the land. So I've got some fantastic people lined up to talk to that. I can't wait to share with you. And as ever, I love doing this. Thank you for being here. It's really nice to be back in the studio. It's nice to be home with my darling dizzle and being on sarc. I do adore being here, so very happy to be back and sharing. More insights with you as to what was learned on that incredible pilgrimage that we've just done. So thank you for being here. See you again next week, and I shall see you the anon.