Nonsense in the Chaos
This weekly offering is an exploration into the unknown, as I interview one of the many extraordinary people I've had the joy of meeting on this weird and wonderful journey we call life.
Instead of having pre-planned questions, I pull three tarot cards, which we’ll discuss and share our insights on. This concept aims to support me and the listeners to learn to be at ease with the unknown, demonstrating how there’s something to gain from trusting the chaos of the universe.
Nonsense in the Chaos
#50 Making Friends with Plants; The Seed Sistas and the Healing Power of Herbalism
For this special 50th episode, I’m joined by the incredible Seed Sistas – two dear friends who have profoundly shaped my understanding of magic, health, vitality, and the deep, reciprocal relationship we can cultivate with the natural world.
Forming friendships with wild plants has been a cornerstone of my pilgrimages. As I’ve walked across the UK, these living beings have offered me company, wisdom, and wonder. With them by my side, I’ve never felt alone. This way of experiencing the world has become utterly precious to me – a source of joy and transformation that I couldn’t now imagine life without.
It has also taught me a profound empathy for indigenous peoples who witness the destruction of their more-than-human kin – trees, plants, animals – and feel that loss as we would a friend or family member. All life is sacred. All relationships matter.
I absolutely adore the way the Seed Sistas see the world, and it’s a true privilege to introduce them to you. These visionary, warrior women bring so much wisdom, humour and heart – and I can’t wait for you to meet them
The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox
Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com
I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.
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Thank you for all your support -x-
The. Welcome to The Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host Jolie Rose. It's with extreme delight that I am introducing you to two incredible women today. Fiona and Karen, who are the seed sisters and are dear friends of mine. I've known them since 2020 when I began their apprenticeship in herbalism in the UK before I moved to soc and. They completely changed my view of the natural world and my relationship to plants and my health. I, I gave up wheat, dairy, and sugar because of working with them and didn't lose my voice because I nearly lost my voice from taking. Steroids every day for my asthma, and it was completely drying my voice out. And I got to the point where I pretty much accepted the fact that I was not gonna be able to speak in a few years time because it was, I lost my voice all the time and it was just getting so difficult and painful to speak. And then through working with herbs and. Support from Karen and Fiona and giving up inflammation foods though wheat, dairy, and sugar. It just, it changed everything. And I mean, I'm a little bit wheezy at the moment'cause I ate a pizza yesterday, so I notice it when I eat wheat, wheat and dairy, it comes back. You know, it affects my asthma and that's something that I discovered and learnt through working with these wonderful ladies along with many other things. So I can't wait for you to hear their incredible wisdom and just. Beautiful perspective on the world. I love it. So without further ado, here is Fiona and Karen and the Seed Sisters. So welcome my darling friends, Fiona and Karen, the Seed Sisters to the Nonsense in the Chaos. This is the first time I've ever done a podcast with more than, uh, one person, so that's really exciting I met you through coming and doing your apprenticeship, which was just before the pandemic. And I mean, it feels like such a long time ago now. Uh, but yeah. So five years ago. But tell us about how you met and how the Seed Sisters came to be and what you do. We met at the turn of the millennium Oh wow. In northeast London, in ponders end, in on a degree in medical herbalism. And it was really apparent when we met each other that we were kindred spirits and what had brought us to herbalism and the study of plant medicine in. Quite a kind of dry scientific setting. Uh, what had brought us there was quite similar was a love of nature, a love of plants, a love of wildness and political activism. And through that whole degree period, we'd hang out together for study sessions, but inevitably end up. Rifling around the hedgerows, seeing what was there, hanging out with the plants and playing. Yeah, because one of the things that struck me when, um, you were talking about it when I was doing the apprenticeship was that you hardly went out and actually spent any time with plants. When you were doing the, the kind of medical version of it, it was like twice or something. The degree was a full time, four year course, and it was set up by. A group of herbalists and the intention for the academic degree was to bring herbalism and herbalists kind of in line with the current medical model so that herbalists would be able to integrate with the NHS and be able to actually communicate with doctors and various different people that are working within medicine. So it was highly. Medicalized, lots of laboratory work. We were in the Whittington Hospital wearing white coats and stethoscopes. It was all very, very proper, which is great. It's a really amazing training, but it forgot the magic and it forgot nature and that. That was such a shame because everybody that had come on to study herbalism obviously loved plants. And what we learned was there's many, many herbalists that practice herbalism, and they're kind of tongue in cheek dubbed brown bottle herbalist. So they're people that are trained in this incredible knowledge, but they don't actually have any connection to the plants. And that's something that we. Riled against. We didn't want to go down that route at all. Hmm. Yeah.'cause the reason why you were pointed out to me was'cause of a friend of mine called Josie, who she'd heard me probably tell this story a million times about how I'd been at an Ayahuasca ceremony in my early twenties, and the shaman, who's from Columbia had said that they don't just go around the Amazon randomly trying things out and seeing whether they live or die. They would sit with the plant and they'd communicate with it. Uh, the spirit of the plant would tell it what its medicine was and I just, you know, that blew my mind. I was like, what? And had told people about it for years. I mean, it was probably, probably best part of 20 years that I'd been telling people about it before Joc said, you should check out the Seed Sisters on Instagram.'cause they're saying the same kind of thing as what you're talking about. And then I found you and, and it was, I think it was amazing because my, I couldn't figure out how. Someone would sit and communicate with a plant and um, figure out what its medicine was. And then through your course, I, you taught me that. And the one I always use as an example is Daisy, that children make daisy chains and they play with daisies and they're very happy plants and that they're really good for depression. And I use daisy syrup. For a couple of years and now I can't look at daisies without just seeing happy faces looking up at me. And I love it. Like I love Daisy so much and yeah. Do you wanna talk a bit about that process and also how you came,'cause obviously it wasn't taught in your degree course, like how you came to understand that part of it. Yeah. The, the Daisy, I mean, that's a great example because in, you know, any text that you go and read. About, you know, plants that are herbal medicine techs, quite often they'll have constituents and actions and maybe conditions you can work with those plants for. And if you look up Daisy, firstly, many of them won't have Daisy in it. And it's, you know, here in the UK it's such a common plant that grows everywhere, yet had dropped out of the more common material medics. So the list of plants that can be used for medicine. So it often wasn't written about. That has changed in the last 25 years or so. We've been shouting quite loudly about Daisy, but I think there's become more awareness, but you won't see Daisy written as for. Depression, Jay-Z has this emotional bolstering quality. Daisy helps you bounce back when you've been emotionally bruised and physically. The sings help to break down. The, the pooled blood that happens when you actually bruise. So Daisy has this kind of physical effect of supporting bruising and this more emotional effect of helping you to bounce back from emotional bruising. And when we were working with more and more herbs, we were getting. Getting signs, getting, getting messages from the plants were coming in all sorts of different ways through the tastes of the plants and recognizing constituents through feelings that would arise, or even conversations as we were harvesting them. And only after kind of working with the plants would we then go to books or things that other people had written and try and decipher. What we'd heard from the plants, and that really helped us to start trusting our intuition around what we were sensing, what we were tasting, what we were feeling. So we always recommend that you choose a plant that you are really, really sure of what the identification is, so you're not. Poisoning yourself or taking something really toxic and then sitting with it, getting to know it. And I think it's really easy to forget that we often talk about, oh, humans will have observed animals in order to know what's toxic or not. Or you know, humans will have. Yeah, that's, you know, that's a big story that comes historically from our past. But what we forget is that when we had much less input from technology and cars and day-to-day goings on, that we are part of nature, we have all of that instinctual knowledge that animals have about. Oh, that tastes bitter. It may have alkaloids in it or um, or even just colors or senses or feelings from the plants that we get and. It's, it's challenging sometimes to remove all of that and step back into that place, but, you know, with a bit of practice it's possible for, for anyone to do that. And I guess we are both really lucky'cause we've both been brought up with families that love nature. And I had a grand who was a keen gardener who made, you know, witches brooms. So she always made beams and taught us how to make them. And she taught us from. Tiny that you talk to your plants and you, uh, stroke them. She called all of her cuttings, her babies. So being brought up in a family that normalizes. What's now called Nature Connection is a kind of trend. You, you kind of grow up and it's second nature to think about our plant kin as equals to us. You know, as humans we've got all this kind of discussion around, uh, gender equality or, um, racism or, but there's just, it's all human centered. Everything is human centric and I think we've been very lucky. I, I count myself really lucky that my grandma was never about. Humans being the most important. We always looked at the ecology and the environment that was the garden and the wider garden. And that's something that both of us had when we came to the degree. So although it was this, you know, like uber scientific space, we knew that there's a magic out there. We knew that the plants had led us. You know, down that path. And when we qualified, it was really important to us because it became apparent that nobody knew what herbal medicine was. Out in society and more important than setting up a practice and seeing patients was to educate as many people as possible about the amazing, incredible world that is accessible to everyone who is able to go outside. You know, in the most urban environments, the weeds grow up through the cracks and the pavements, they're still there. They're everywhere. Yeah, I love that. And so maybe, yeah, just share a bit about the offerings that you have.'cause you've, you do the apprenticeship and you've got some other online things as well. So do you wanna share a bit about the, the things that you do that people could come and get involved in? Um. Yeah, so our apprenticeship is what you joined us for and that's a, we call it a year long program. And from when you kind of sign up until it's finished it it is, but it's over. Over the four seasons of the year, we have four residential retreats and it's a foundation in heroism understanding. How plants can work with the human body, but also what other gifts they offer and what we can also offer them. And people come on our course and you know, get a real sense of how they can support themselves and their family with plants, but also this long lasting, deep relationship with plant kin. So suddenly the hedge row. It opens up. It's not just a green hedge. It's full of many different species of plants that's what you introduced me to when I walk through the florist. Now I just, it's like I'm going to a party. Yeah. Yeah. That feeling. Yeah. And even that removes a sense of being alone. Yeah. Because they're surrounded by plant life and Yeah. I think that's one of the most important. Parts of it is that it's something that you, you're forever changed then because those relationships don't leave you, you know? Yeah. It's the magic wand that you have as a child.'cause children have relationships with plants and you'll have relationships with trees that you climb and, you know, they'll be the bushes that you know, and they've got names and, and then you just sort of grow out of it. Yeah, coming and doing the apprenticeship put me right back in that place where it suddenly became this imaginative world again and, and yeah, made friends with all of these plants and I've got trees here on the islands that are, have got names and go and visit them and I've got a fairy tree and yeah, there's all just completely put it back into that childlike state, which is wonderful. And that's really key with all of the work we do, whether it's the apprenticeship or our online membership, our coven of herbal secrets is the imagination and being able to. Trust your own imagination and silence those voices that sometimes come in that tell you to stop being silly or to grow up because silliness and play is part of magic. And we talk about the magic, and what we really mean is creativity. Our own innate ability to communicate creatively with all of life, with the whole cosmos, and we get. Quite a finite amount of time here on this planet and we are really keen to like delve deep and explore all of the possible fantastic potential that is within the plant life. Yeah, totally. It's one of those things that when we do the pilgrimage,'cause um, the Seed Sisters were also involved in the pilgrimage, that I went to Cop 26, with 30 odd other people and, One of the things that I've learned from doing pilgrimages with other people is that their relationship to the lines is imagination as well. And everyone has different relationships. Some people feel like they can feel the exact shape of the lines. Some people notice synchronicities. Some people are like, I feel like it has a kind of, um, oily filter on some of the lines. Not all of them, which is interesting. I thought that they would maybe all feel the same, but they don't. And the ones that go up north are more like. Uh, angry and it feels like you're riding a dragon. Like those lines are ferocious, whereas the Michael Mary line that goes, horizontally across the UK is a lot more tender and gentle. It feels like they're sort of, for you. Whereas the lines, the Ellen and Bellus lines that go up the country feel like it's what you, what are you gonna do for the, the world? What are you doing back? Mm-hmm. Um, really different. Like it was quite a shock. But yeah, everyone had their own relationship with it and I feel like that's everyone had, is giving yourself permission to. Feel and experience the things that you are inwardly feeling and experiencing. So none of it's right or wrong. It's your personal, kind of imaginative world and, and I just think that's so much more what we used to do with indigenous culture. You would have this, it would be one, like your inner world and outer world. Well, one thing, and you would have this imaginative. Landscape in your outer world that was full of plants and all of the, yeah. Medicine and yeah. Beautiful things that you get to enjoy. What's really interesting with that is that that imaginative world is the same across the globe for individual plants. So you have a relationship with Daisy, for example. That relationship brings forth your. Understanding of that flower. And she communicates in, in her tastes, in the way she looks, in the way. You know, when you stand on a daisy, she bounces back up. So you notice, and that's the same for everybody, gets the same sensory information and we see patterns. We've seen many patterns through the years where we work with groups of people doing a blind tasting, for example, drinking a a cup of daisy tea, and the whole group doesn't know what they're drinking and they come back with the same information, the same feelings. There's something that's like deeply ancestral knowledge. It's somehow held somewhere, somewhere in the ether that, um, it's just beautiful to watch again and again. It's fascinating. Yeah, I think there's something in that with what you said about the lines there as well, because, you know, let's imagine we don't know about longitude and latitude on the earth or the way that the earth spins, but you know, and that you've experienced going. Almost east to west and north to south, and you have that feeling. And then when you go and thi and someone, you know, imagining you didn't know about latitude and longitude, and then someone tells you about it and you think, ah, well those lines are more kind of temporarily stable. Whereas this one moves a lot more away from, you know, the, the, the core or the same line. And in, in a way. They're more stable in many more ways than you might have just imagined, horizontally, rather than longitudinally. And you know, so there would probably be a common experience within those lines as well that couldn't be necessarily explained until someone. Told. Told you about the geography or the way that the earth is, and then it makes sense. And what we are saying, suggesting is that it's similar with the plants. If we forget what we know about a plant, people really come to many of the same answers. That's so cool and interpreted through a different filter, like you're saying, you know, what someone experiences as joy someone else is experiencing as, um, I dunno, bolstering them up or whatever it might be. But there's a, a quality, a similarity with them when we really tap into that. That's really cool. I love it. Yeah. It's, it is just so amazing.'cause yeah, when I was younger and I, this shaman said what he said, I just, I just blew my mind and I couldn't imagine how, and then through the work we did with you, you know, and it was drawing pictures and writing stories about the plants and their personalities and it all just came together and it was like, oh yeah, this totally makes sense. This, that was really easy. But it was very instinctual and it, it made sense and it made sense because of. Being in that state as a child and kind of coming back. So it was like coming back home to something rather than some weird farfetched idea that was completely over there. It felt like coming home it was like, oh yeah, this is what I did as a kid. And that makes sense. That makes total sense. Yeah. so let's do a card. So, um, maybe if we go with you, Fiona, first you pick one.'cause otherwise you might say stop at different times. We probably will, unless you're perfectly tuned in with each other. Um, so. It's probably gonna be a bit of a lag, but we'll try and get the card you point out. So I'll move my finger along and you say when to stop. Stop. Back a bit. Back a bit. That one? Yeah. No. Forwards towards me. That one little sliver. Ooh. Oh, that's, yeah. Just sticking out further along. Back. Stop that one. It's not that one. No, it's not that one. Which one? Got it? Let's get it. Let's get it. Keep going. Keep going. You've lost it now, right? It's sticking out. It's sticking out. That one that right at the end. Right at the end. Right on the end. It's sticking out. That one have to drop out right at the end now. Yeah, that one. That one was it? That one? Not that one. We'll have that one. I love that one. Interference. Perfect. So interference. What do you feel is happening like in the world and just for you in terms of interference? What does that mean to you at the moment? Um. Well, interference to me would mean challenges along the way. Mm-hmm. So, like what's, I mean, I think of interference as like, you know, you've got a radio signal mm-hmm. And something's getting in the way of that signal coming through clearly. Um, so I would see that as what's, what's coming to challenge the flow. And, um, how to, how to remove those blocks, which actually I think is, is pertinent to where we're at and the work that we're doing. Um,'cause we've had a very long period of preparation of quite a lot of things, um, particularly with our, our own Oracle cards. Mm-hmm. The sensory hairball oracle. These have been 19 years in the making. Oh wow. Wow. And they've just come out in May, um, 2025. And we, we. Although we've got other publications in the pipeline, that was really like what we had planned. There was two other publications on the way to them coming out, and it was like, right now what's, what's stopping us? You know, and our, our online forum, that's been out now for about a year and a half, and we really planned to have this preparation time with that and make sure everything was flowing well and. Um, there's been multiple things that have interfered with really getting out there. Mm-hmm. One of which has been tech issues, for example, which we've smoothed over, over the last year or so. And then visibility, you know, we, we went to pop festival, which is, um, power of plants, and we realized that we're actually like. Quite well known in a very niche corner of the world, which is the herbal medicine world. And all of our work, the intention is about getting people reconnected with plants. That's the message. That's what we want. And that's, that's the main focus of all of our work of the intention. And in order to do that, our work needs to be visible. Mm-hmm. So I feel like that interference is about what, what's getting in the way of that and what can we shift, what can we move? And I think we've been having a big focus on that the last month or two actually, on how to, how to shift those blocks. Mm-hmm. And what do you feel about what's going on in the world at the moment in terms of being out there as kind of witchy women? Um,'cause I've been very vocally and openly out there and. More like the last year. My feeling about my safety with that has definitely shifted. Um, I was just wondering how that felt for you guys. Well, we, we often talk about working sub rosa. So sub rosa under the rose, um, comes from the historical applications of bringing ceiling roses into stately homes, but it goes right back to Roman times And so for us. There's a certain amount of secrecy with the rows because sub rows are, there was often meetings held. Um, people knew that if you were talking under the rows, that was not to go further than whoever you are speaking to. So it's connected in with the power of keeping your magic secret. Because we have experienced sticking our heads above the parapet and getting shot down. You know, many years ago when we were, um, brought up by the trading standards and the medical kind of. Trading regulatory body, um, because they didn't like what we were doing. And we know full well that the, the power of the women, the power of the medicine women, the power of the cuing folk who were. Slurred witches. It was a slur, but the power of the witch is holds deep fear. There's a lot of fear that is palpable because the power of the women and the equality of the sexes leads to a very different landscape that we have today, and there's many people that don't want that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, I'm feeling sort of very fear, not fearless. I wouldn't say that's true, but I'm feeling very come on then about it. But it definitely feels less safe than it did in 2020 or whatever when I was like. There just sort of, yeah, went, went a bit more down this route and kind of, yeah, put, put myself out there online and that sort of thing. And then suddenly it's like, oh, things have changed a little bit. The landscape's a bit different. So yeah, it was just, um, I, I think some of it is, yeah, about what you are prepared for or. Not prepared to, to take. And yeah, we've certainly gone like that in our journey with it. And it doesn't mean that we've ever removed power or presence, we've just shapeshift. Mm-hmm. Um, in order to overcome. And that is some of that sub rosa stuff. Um, because you can, we always think of like following. You know, if we think of ourselves as part of nature, like what do the plants do? And the plants create their own protective forces. They develop more essential oils. If there's been drought or if there's been pests eating them, they, they'll develop more of their alkaloids. Um, sometimes in response to the sun or being nibbled by creatures and they, they create protective measures for themselves, but that doesn't mean, in fact, in some cases it can mean that they're more potent. Hmm. Energetically, but we've, we've always drawn from that and thought, where do we need to protect ourselves and how, and you know, we can be really fearless and strong and powerful against that interference, but that can get tiring. Mm-hmm. Holding that boundary. So it's. We, we often call it creative, um, resistance. How can we do this in a. In a creative way, which, you know, I feel like with a lot of your work, that's where you are going with the Beltane work and, and all of that. It's creating a, Pete Yates said, didn't he, at one of the, um, at breaking conventions. He said the the revolution will be carnivalesque. Yes. That's totally my vibe. That's totally your vibe and our vibe, you know? Yeah. And it's, it's drawing people into the carnival, the party. But the messaging's there, if they, if they look or if you know, they're absorbing that on a different level. Um. Yeah. Yeah. And it's about doing, you know, when we talk about creative resistance, we're actually looking at the hedgerow. So the hedgerow is the boundary, and that boundary is also important for all of us to hold, but they're not doing it alone. You know, the. The slow and the rose hip and the crab apple and the Hawthorne. All these thorny members of the Rose family actually are arm in arm. They weave through one another and they hold this boundary together with lots of nourishment and just this messaging of support and. Often when, because we are resisting, we are resisting a tide of gray. Mm-hmm. Um, and have been for many years. Um, but in that resistance, it's, it's so important to nourish ourselves one another and keep things light, keep things fun. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I do a month, uh, fortnightly. Column in the Guernsey press and it's about the moon. But I like, I was basically writing about anarchy in the one that I submitted yesterday. I was like just like, oh Leo. The Leo Dark Moon. A time for anarchy. Exactly. You know, let's have some nice astrology. Right. Yeah. You're only gonna read this if you wanna read it, so, or hear it if you wanna. Yeah, exactly. If you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting me over at Patreon, which is patreon.com/jolie Rose. This is my passion. It's my creative way of expressing myself and my outlet in the limitations of being on and being on a tiny island. And. I love it actually. I think it works well. This is, uh, I just love, it's like the seed sisters we're talking about shape-shifting and um, working with what, what, what you've got. You know, we have to, as artists, we have to shapeshift and actually Sark's great because you have to be a Swiss Army knife on Sark. That's part of, um. How people work living here, uh, as in work as in you physically work, but also people who suit living here and people who don't. The people who suit living here are the ones that are able to be Swiss Army knives who are flexible and have lots of different skills that they can bring to the mix because you can't really just be here and be one thing. And, and that suits me as an artist. So I love that I'm making it all up as I go along. And. I had to shift from being a theater and event organizer to, I am still doing event organizing here. So an event organizer and politician didn't see that one coming, and a writer and podcaster and though, you know, writing. It goes out into the world so that that doesn't matter where that's coming from. In fact, being somewhere as inspiring and lush as this is a perfect place to be a writer, that's the dream really is for me to be making a living as a writer here and then doing the podcast is I, in a way, I feel like it's like an audio book and I, yeah, it, it feels like a, a, an essay or an article that I do, um, verbally each week. So. Feels like a kind of journalism or a type of writing in its way. Using words to get across ideas and explore things and explore different things with people. I like it. I love it. You know, it's been, it's been great to learn how to do this. It's a new skill that I have now acquired and. Yeah, I should make also my audio books. That's what I should do. So that's another thing I should do. But all of these things take time, and time is money. And I need to get some money for this time because the only time that I do get money for is working in a bar. And that's not very much money. That time is not, uh, valued as highly as it. Would be nice if it was. And so, uh, I don't have much money and it would be great if this time was valued highly too. And, um, uh, if I was receiving money for doing this, that would be great. Um, so if you are supporting me, I would just wanna say huge thank you, because it makes. It makes my heart sing, and it does feel lovely to receive that gratitude, you know, through support from a Patreon. It really does make my day and I'm, so every month when I get a payment coming through, I'm like, oh, that's so nice. You know? It's lovely and I really, it's, it's a, it's the best way I've ever made money. Um, you know, I, I've got arts council grants in the past and that felt like a, a nice. Thank you from the powers that be, but this feels nicer.'cause this is the, the audience saying thank you. This is like you buying tickets or buying my album or buying my, you know, buying my book. It's got that kind of feel to it. So I really appreciate it. So thank you so much for supporting me. And if you are not able to, and it, you know, finances are a barrier, which I totally understand and appreciate, then please just talk about it, share about it. Uh, it'd be great if you could go on the British Podcast Awards website and go to the listeners Choice Award, type in nonsense in the chaos, and then you click on it when it comes up, and then you'll get a. Confirmation email. If you reply to that, then the vote will go through. If you're able to do that, I would hugely appreciate it. That would be amazing. And that's something you can do for free as a form of gratitude. Um, and then just post about it, talk about it, share it. That also is a huge thank you that I would greatly appreciate. So whatever you're able to do. Of it is, you know, I just love that you are here and that you're listening and especially that I get to share such awesome people with you. I love Fiona and Karen so much, and I'm, I'm chuffed a bits that I'm getting to share them with you. So yeah, it makes it all possible, um, through the support that I get. So thanks to all of you and I've got some things coming up. I'll. Boom town next week. So do come and see me. I'll be on the Lions gate stage in the opening ceremony, and that's exciting. Front of 60,000 people, that's a, a really exciting thing to be doing. And then we run a venue called La Luna Coven. So if you're gonna be at the festival, do come and find us. And it's a secret, uh, venue, so you'll have to dig us out, but come and find us and. See what we're up to. It's gonna be fun. And then I'll be at Kentwell Hall Tutor Reenactment in Suffolk, uh, which is in long Melford, near Sudbury, uh, the week after, and living as a mama's player, a tutor performing player person. Uh, so you can come and watch us perform our plays and we. Yeah. Uh, just entertainers, uh, but you also get to see lots of incredible historians and living history and what a, yeah, it's, it's an amazing place. I do come along and check us out. If you live in East Anglia or you know, London, it's not far from London. Fancy coming down for the day is the most beautiful place as well. Uh, it's, it's an amazing day out. Come and see glass blowers and trumpet makers and arches and potters and animal herders and yeah, it's, it's amazing. So do come if you're able to, and then I'll be on the pilgrimage for the whole of September and October with a group of people as traveling players performing Georgia and the Dragon Mamas play. And we're looking for places to perform at and for people to feed us and put us up. So if you live anywhere along the Michael Lay line, um, the Michael and Mary route. Then please give us a shout. Um, we'd love to come and hook up with you and if you wanna come walk with us for a day or two, you're very welcome. So yeah, all of these lovely things coming up. And then my book's coming out as well towards the end of the year. Um, I'll share more about that as we go along, but that looks like it's gonna be published and out for Christmas. So that's walking with Autumn. Watch the space. Uh, but more about that later now on with the show. Excellent. Right. So, Karen, if you wanna pick the next card, stop that one. Yeah. Excellent. I've got it. I've got it this time. Okay, so this is the prince of discs and he's a very sexy figure on a, um, so it's a bit like the chariot, but he's sort of going somewhere'cause the chariot doesn't tend to go anywhere. He's got this bull pulling him on a chariot with, and it's earth, the earth element. So does that mean anything to you? What does that bring up to you? Well straight away my mind went to playing Frisbee because he's on discs. Yes. And so, and discs take me to Terry PRT as well. Yeah. Because of the whole, so yeah. Movement, travel, time, space, reality, and the bull. The tour. Yeah. Grounding it in absolute, um, luxury and deliciousness. Mm-hmm. Um. Yeah. What do you like to do? What's the things that you like to do to make yourself feel like that? Well, food is really, really important and this time of year is so opulent. You know, the garden's full. I've been, um, every single day going and collecting. We've got loads of, um, peppers, padron, mm-hmm. These lovely little green peppers and bee fruits and carrots and, you know, getting our food and our medicine straight out of the garden is such an opulent state of an abundance. And, um. That makes me feel whole and often in the garden. I think, what would my life look like if I did nothing except for garden? Yeah. What would it look like? What would it feel like? What could,'cause I believe that you could learn everything in it. Absolutely. Every aspect of knowledge from a garden by attending and watching and, and learning. We're actually going to work, um, with the great Charles doubting at a festival very soon, which is very exciting. I'm, I'm getting excited about that. And he's the prince of discs. Hmm. Yeah, sounds like it. But, you know, part of our messaging as Seed Sisters, what we do with our social enterprise is about connecting people to plants and one. Really important plant connection is to be able to grow something, and that can be in a pot on your window sill, you don't need a garden, but having a connection to the seed and planting a seed and actually watching those first seed leaves. And then maybe you later on, pick a few leaves and chop'em up and put them in your tea or put them in your soup that. That connection is something changes in human beings. And you see that if children are lucky enough to have a teacher that grows beans with them, it's an exciting thing. Mm-hmm. And that stays with us, that excitement throughout the whole of our lives. This caring and I bio bean plants. Yeah, definitely. And I always love that thing of. About the trees look like lungs and that they work together. And then the gut is the soil and they work together and I. I love that. Yeah, we've got quite a bit of food growing on sarc, but we need to start thinking about it more because we are the end of the supply chain and, um, if anything goes wrong, which, you know, possibly might, we might not get food. Like as simple as that. So one of the things that I'm trying to encourage. From a government perspective is what do we do about food supply and uh, we definitely need to grow a bit more food. So that's something that we're gonna be looking at. We used to have an amazing permaculture lady who I actually interviewed in one of the previous podcasts. Name was Roz and she was from New Zealand and she. Set up a be like quite a few permaculture gardens, um, on sar, and there was one that was winning awards and stuff, and, and then it all got closed and it's all overgra now and it's forgotten about and want to try and get it going again, which, uh, yeah, it's a bit of, a bit of a dream. So hopefully, yeah. And a seed, a seed bank, you know, for starters, just to make sure the seeds are there. If my chain stopped. Yeah. Because it happens really quickly. You know, we saw it in the pandemic, um, during the pandemic seed suppliers sold out. Yeah.'cause people weren't at work. And they were like, well, what do we do? The shelves and the shops are empty. Yeah. And people were coming to us, um, loads and loads of people came to us locally to find out how to grow. So it's, having seeds is the most important thing. Yeah. Having the stock. Good point. That's a very good point. And um, what about a gardening book? I would love a Seed Sister's gardening book. That would be, that would be cool. Talking about what's next. Yeah. Along maybe like, I really like that image of the bull. Um. Pulling because it's the earth energy as well. And that yeah. That it's like that earth energy of, of growing and you know, that's what's gonna push out the interference. Yeah. Is just that like, headstrong going for it? Practicality. Keeping on, yeah. And, and bringing, you know, the discs can be thrown out there spreading. Spreading the seeds of wisdom. Yeah, totally. Well, I've planted the seed for a gardening book, so hopefully that might happen at some point. All right, Fiona, you can have another go.'cause I dunno if I actually got the card you wanted last time. So irrelevant though. It's all good. We'll just go for right on the other end this time. This one? Yeah. Excellent. This is the Emperor, which feels like a very Leo. Um. Dark moon, so it's very fiery. Although actually, I mean he is kind of more airy. He's got a ram on there and he's extremely fiery. But sticking forward a little bit. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, he's cool. Yeah. Very, very fiery. And um, this was sort of what I was writing about in the. Article for this week, which is about sovereignty and us all remembering and reclaiming and owning our own sovereignty, and not expecting leaders to do everything for us, but for us to feel like the emperor on our throne and in our power, fiery power. So how does that feel for you? Are you, you both of you always feel like you're in your fiery power. Like that's one of the things that's um. I think probably everyone who meets you is just like, ah, I wanna be, I wanna be in their presence.'cause you just feel so strong and powerful. So what uh, I mean I think it really is lovely how much you support each other with that as well. And yeah, it's nice'cause you're obviously a team, but talk about like what you, yeah. What does any of that mean to you? How does that land for you? Um, yeah, I think. Something we were talking about in a meeting yesterday actually was about the, um, the, the living example.'cause it's all very well teaching and, you know, preaching for want of a better word, about connecting to plants and, um, holding space and caring for yourself and. I often talk about like, what does this kind of idea of the warrior mean? You know, it's thrown around so much in kind of spiritual circles, but actually the energy and and drive that it takes to. To keep going, to nurture yourself, to nurture your gardens, to nurture your family, to nurture our community and the work that we do. We always talked about where the Seed Sisters, but our community interest company is called Sensory Solutions Herbal Evolution, and we always talked about sensory solutions being our baby that needed nurturing and um, that. We are a massive support for each other in that because obviously there is times when one or both of us has huge challenges, might be personal challenges or might be work stresses, whatever. Um, we can lean on each other in those situations. But I think one of the main things is, as Karen was saying about nourishing from the garden, but that real. Awareness of nourishing our health and wellbeing. And I think that's, you know, that's maybe what, what it is. Mm. I mean you both feel like you've got a lot of vitality so you are, yeah. It's working and the work that you do with what you are eating and consuming is obviously working.'cause you both always gloat. Yeah. And we, we. We made a commitment, you know, we made a, an intention, um, for our lives and it's a very long time ago. We, we made that commitment and it was actually, we pulled tarot cards at the time and we did a reading to really feel into the rage, so that emperor. Fiery Ram pushing through that energy of, um, both of us were pretty disillusioned with the world and society as teenagers and felt a deep burning rage and that rage. Pushed us to rebel. And in the rebellion we damaged ourselves as well because you know, you burn yourself when you're full. Full flying Supernova 1617, and the rage was transmuted because we both made an intention together to create and. Channel the rage into something that was our baby sensory solutions who was turned into a, a child, a teenager, and now a young adult. And, um, bigger and bigger and, and. We have used that analogy over the last 25 years. We're like, oh, it's in its teen years now. This is, it's being a nightmare. Yeah, exactly. Puberty. But the sisterhood, you know, we talked about yesterday in the meeting, this word sisterhood and we, we, many years ago discussed the order of the apple, which is part of the sisterhood, where it's about being incredibly. Careful and kind to all of your sisters and having deep respect for your sisters. And putting them above other, other things. The sisterhood. And we, we live by that and we have lived by that. And, uh, yeah, it doesn't mean, uh, letting go of the shit a lot of the time. You know, we're both fiery. We're both have got our opinions on things and quite a lot of the time, either one of us just has to go, okay, whatever, and just let it. Let it go and we'll take turns at that. Mm-hmm. And that's the way that we can make it work. But I think that, yeah, that fiery rage is, it is still what drives us. Um, and we do have to be careful not to burn out. Mm-hmm. Um, with it, it is something we, we have to take care over. Um, I was also talking about this the other day, that herbalists often arrive at a place of discovering plants because they've not been, well for whatever reason that might be. Things haven't been working out or seeking out or support. And, um, that, you know, that often means that their living example of how. Herbs and plants and that focused energy can support and work. But it does also mean that quite often there's a vulnerability there with health and you know that the way that we have managed that is by channeling. All of that kind of potential burning up energy into our, our baby, this work, this passion. Mm. Yeah. Alongside being clinicians. You know, we're, we're clinicians. We see patients. We've got a really amazing academic education behind us, and you never stop learning when you are in the field of health and wellness. You are constantly reading and looking at the latest research because we are solution strategists. When people are ill, we, our job is to find the correct herbs and lifestyle advice to help them get on a path of health so we can apply that to ourselves as well. So we're in really good position. Yeah, it was one of the things I loved on the course because there was a guy who was very medical, he was a doctor, and he kept asking like, really, you know, I dunno, questions that I didn't understand and you always had answers. And I was just like, oh yeah, they know what they're talking about. It was really good. But it, I, it feels like that's so important because I think. Uh, it just, it just felt, I, it felt, um, like you had all bases covered and I really appreciated that. I was like, no, they really very much know what they're talking about, and this has been the route that they've gone down, which felt. Like, I dunno.'cause otherwise you can feel like things might be a bit Wawa. And so when you know that it's actually based on, on something, I dunno, because hard, hard, cold, scientific facts, hard cold facts. Yeah. It's annoying, isn't it? But, but I always think it's amazing how. We've gone sort of full circle and a lot of the science has caught up with what indigenous people already knew. Um, I heard yesterday, my friends from Australia and we were talking about aboriginal culture and how amazing and rich it is, and she said they still, uh, people still aren't researching aboriginal medicine and that it's just being forgotten. And that I, it just, it hurts. It hurts inside because you know that that's gonna be lost, you know, how many generations does it take before that's lost and it. Because you see it here as well with the language. We have a language here, we have a, and there's about three or four people left who can speak it. And it's just really sad'cause it's like how do we make people, you know, want to learn it and keep it alive? Because within that there will be words for plants or there'll be stories and folklore and things in there that will be hints at stuff that's around us and, and how it could be used and how it was used in the past. And yeah, it's just sad when all this, it is what I always think of of. Biodiversity and how important biodiversity is in nature, but it is in people as well, and that's what this wave of gray you were talking about, it's like, no, we need the, we need all of the colors and the voices and the accents and the languages and all the stuff for us to be resilient in the future. Mm-hmm. So that brings us onto the Chaos Crusade. So in a way of being resilient in the future, the, the point of this podcast is about us relaxing with the unknown and not just sort of, um, following the Matrix that's being, you know, the script that's being placed in front of us, but to. See things differently and to kind of break the matrix and step outside of it and do things differently and to learn to be relaxed with change and the unknown. So what is something that you would suggest people could do to mix things up a little bit and experience reality in a different way? I, I think we're probably united on this, is that the, the suggestion is to go out and make a new friend from the wild. Hmm. To find a plant maybe that you know the name of or the species of and go and be with that plant, observe, look at where it's growing. Is there a sense of, uh, an energy. We often genderize plants, but it might be that it's more of a, a spirit energy or you know, is there something that that wants to come through, that personifies it? What's growing around that plant? What's the soil like? Is it growing in some harsh, wild merlin environment? Is it nestled in amongst lots of other bushes? Has it been planted there intentionally by human? You know, and, and really explore your own visual senses around the herb. If it's a herb, it's, you know, a medicinal herb, then that's, that's really the one rather than a cult of our for the garden. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of plants have come so far away from their original wild form if they're just grown for beauty, for example, which is lovely and has its place. But this is about connecting with the, the medicine of the plants. Really. Hmm. What did you call it? A chaos. Chaos crusade. A chaos crusade that conjures up mug work for me at the moment. Um, we are in the, the height of summer in recording this today and the mug work is a beautiful plant lining all of the paths and roads around where I'm living. And something that's quite exciting to do is to develop a dream practice, something that really kicks up the, the normal day-to-day mundanity, because we all sleep for a good portion. About a third of our lives we're asleep and in. Medicine historically, dream Temples were the old hospitals, and mugwort is a herb that helps us with dream recollection and taps us into the dreaming space. So it might be nice for people to make themselves a dream pillow. Or just drink a cup of mug work brew, and get a dream diary together and really work out what that part of their consciousness is opening to them. And the plants come through there in, in wild and wacky, chaotic ways. Mm-hmm. I love mug wat so much. When I first moved over here, I was, um, working, drinking mug wat constantly and um, and the flying ointment that, that you have, that you make, that was one of my best memories ever. Um, I've said this to you before, fi that, uh. It felt like I was in Hogwarts and it was when we were making the, um, flying ointment and you was holding the bag full of herbs that had been stewing in oil all day and you were just poking it with a wooden fallas to squeeze the last of the oil out. And you're like, yeah, the best way to insert this is to insert a wooden fallas. And I was just like, this is my dream school. This is the best thing I've ever seen in my life. And yeah, uh, mug when I work with her, um. Without fail. People see me in their dreams. They just keep, I just keep popping up in other people's dreams. And a friend of mine got in touch'cause they stopped seeing me in their dream and I was like, oh yeah, I just haven't drunk any mug water for a while. But yeah, I seem to like get really busy and go visit people when I'm working with mug work. Maybe warrants more research that we've had that before when we've been drinking mug war and we'll appear in people's dreams. So, uh, uh, you know, yeah. Needs to, we need to get scientific about what's going on there. Yeah. I mean, this would be an easier way to travel across the universe, wouldn't it? J and and go traveling. I mean the dream, dream research is a fascinating field. There is, uh,'cause we work a lot with the dreaming and I love the fact that in 19 75, 2 separate. Dream laboratories on either side of the Atlantic discovered the exact same way of communicating in the lucid dreaming through eye movements. Mm. And that was, so in 1975 is when they discovered that we can communicate with someone who is in lucid dream state when you are awake. But that was found out in two separate places. The dreaming is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well that's what, that's part of the aborigine culture is the dreaming, and it's what in fooling that that's what we are working with. We're going into that space of collective consciousness and the soup that is collective consciousness, and I love it. Yeah, absolutely. Like. The, the inner world is just so powerful and we're so fixated on the outer world, but I feel like we've seen, you know, I think with the enlightenment, we, we went with reasoning and we sort of cut off the heads. We literally cut, cut off the heads of our religious leaders and we went with logic and, and we became disembodied. And I think we've achieved so much. We've done so much with just using the hedge and the outer world and the intellect, but. It's time for us to find that balance of bringing that inner world part back in again. Because without it, there isn't, I dunno, it feels like it's science without morals. There's no love, there's no, it's not got kindness in there. Whereas if we bring that all back together again, obviously we don't wanna get too superstitious or, you know, it was about finding the balance between the two. But our life has become a bit meaningless and we, that, that was the thing that I loved about. Befriending the hedges and finding this imaginative world in my outer world again, is that it brought magic back into everyday life and made everything as fantastic and amazing as it was as a child. So yeah, I think letting the dreaming flow out into the real world, real world, whichever way around it is, which one's more real? Thank you so much. What, um, I will be sharing in the notes what your website is and stuff, but do you wanna say about your website and how people can connect with you? Seed sisters.co do UK and that's Sisters with an a s seed sisters.co. Do UK and Instagram Seed Sisters. Um, yeah, and come sign up for our newsletters. That's the best way to keep in touch with us on the website. You can get lots of different free. PDF downloads of interesting things at the minute. You can see what your astrological power here is on the popup that comes up when you get on our website and we send out recipes, what we're up to, what's going on, what things are, what things we're working on. Um. Once or twice a week. Yeah, brilliant. With HIB Law and Love. So come and join us. Excellent. Thank you so much my darling. It's love you both and thank you so much for doing this Speak. I love too. Thank you. So that was the incredible Seed Sisters. I've just loved that conversation. They are my heroes and mentors and I'm so proud to be friends with them. I love and adore them and it's just always a joy to see them. I see them at Glastonbury every year now, which is great because I wouldn't really see them very often otherwise now that I live here. But I see them, uh, they're part of the Horner family and we get to hang out and. Chew the cud and discuss the matters at hand of what's going on in the world. And I just feel like, I always feel like I've got a big, wise gray beard when I'm with them. And we're stroking our beards just going, Hmm, you putting the world to rights And yeah, it's good. There are, there is a few women in my life that I feel very, like every time I'm with them and spend time with them, I feel like I've slightly elevated and they're, they're two people that make me feel like that. And so I'm. Overjoyed that I got to share them with you, and I hope that you check this stuff out. All of their things are amazing. Books are amazing. Courses are amazing. Their, um, healing products are amazing. You can go on their shop and buy their ointments and all sorts of things, but just go meet them, go hang out with them and experience there. Incredible way of seeing the world. So what a joy hurrah and yeah, so I'm now off to Beam Town and I'll uh, do some recording there, let you know how it goes, and then I'll be in the 16th century. I'll let you know how that's all going, although I think we already know how it went. Uh, we we're aware of that. Um, and then I'll be back. Uh, but yeah, I've got podcasts that I've prerecorded and I have lined up. So all very exciting and I look forward to sharing. My adventures with you and yeah, until next week, see the anon.