#48 Language is Power; Ray Howard and Revealing Reality Through Grammar

This week on Nonsense in the Chaos, I finally sat down with someone who's become a bit of a mystery and a marvel to me over the past few years: Ray Howard.

When I first heard of Ray, he was introduced with a wink and a grin as “the island’s hobo.” That label never sat quite right with me – and after our conversation, I know why. Behind the weather-beaten clothes and wandering spirit is a razor-sharp mind with a deep curiosity for the unseen structures that shape our world.

Ray is, in truth, a travelling intellectual. Though often spotted on Sark, he’s mainly based in Oslo and has an intense fascination with the mechanics of linguistics – not just how we speak, but what our words hide, what they reveal, and how meaning lives between the lines. Our chat spiralled into the philosophy of language, the layers beneath conversation, and the strange, shifting relationship between truth and perception.

It wasn’t just a talk – it was a peeling back of the layers of meaning. Ray’s mind dances between ideas like stepping stones, and I found myself running to keep up. In the best way.

If you’re into language, travel, or challenging assumptions, this episode is for you. And if you've ever passed someone off with a label – even playfully – this one might just make you look again.

#47 Let’s Kick this Reality to the Curb & Be the 51%

I’m feeling rebellious, disruptive, and fed up with the status quo. It’s time for a change—and it has to rise from the soil, the stories, and the people at the roots. No more waiting. No more hoping someone else has it handled. They don’t. We have to do this. It’s on us now.

In this week’s episode of Nonsense in the Chaos, I’m cracking open the real questions: What are we going to do about this mess we’re in? How do we turn the ship before it sinks? And what does it mean to choose the side of life when the world’s on fire?

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

Please consider supporting me through patreon.com/JolieRose and like, follow, and review wherever you get your podcasts from. Share about Nonsense in the Chaos far and wide! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Thank you for all your support -x-

Transcript

0:29

The. Welcome to The Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host, Jaylee Rose. Today I'm going to be interviewing another SARC resident. This one is a summer visitor. He is like the swallows. He appears when the weather turns warm and then disappears again when the weather turns cold. When I first moved here, I said, oh, do you have any homeless people who live on sarc? And people said, yes, we have Ray. And then from working at the Mermaid Tavern, I got to know him and I realized that that's not the case, he is an extremely intelligent fellow and yeah, he did choose to sleep in a tent before because he just liked doing so. It wasn't because he was homeless, but he's the nearest we have to a homeless person because we don't, we don't have homeless people in the Channel islands you either move here. With a job or you are from here and so people know you. There might be in Jersey, but there definitely isn't in Sark and Gey or Albany, I would've thought So. Yeah, he's, he's our, a bit like a hobo, he's our closest thing to a hobo. He likes to travel around and he would prefer to sleep in a tent than, uh, stay in a house, which is fair enough. I'm definitely of the same ilk and. Yes. Speaking to him at the Mermaid Tavern over the, the last few years, realizing just, uh, his brain is incredible and I feel like I have managed to capture it in this interview. He's, he's a genius and he does meander but it's fascinating. It's always fascinating. And we do adore him here on sarc. So yes, I hope you enjoy listening to his mind Palace that you know is Ray Howard, so on with the show. Welcome to Ray. What's your surname? Ray Howard. Howard, that's right. Is that Ray Howard? In fact, it's a, uh, it actually shows up in a, in a poem about the Spanish Armad. Does it? My lord Howard ran off with his ships leaving Sir Richard Grenville with one ship to face them. He wasn't a very brave guy about. And is he an ancestor? Uh, not as far as I know. Okay. Well that's alright. So Ray is a regular in Sark. You've been, how long have you been coming to Sark? Uh, since 11 20 11. 2011, okay. Oh, that's not that long back then. So, so 10, 14 years. Yeah. 14 years. 13 years. 13 years. And what made you come here in the first place? I, uh, well, this friend of mine, Stein? Yeah. Who is a great organizer. Sometimes he can be a bit of a something or rather disciplinarian, He's really good at organizing things. Yeah. And so the first time I came because, well, actually I came for free because, um, I used to help him out in his bar. He'd leave, he'd go home, take his last bus of course, to 12. I'd take over and close it at three o'clock. And since I lived in the same house, I didn't have any last buses. And, um, it, I must say that bar. Let's the, okay. The craziest thing you've ever come across, and you could do things there that you get you kicked out of anywhere. where is this bar? Uh, Oslo. Oslo. Okay. And, um, yeah, so he said, well, anyone who has helped me, you know, I, so I came along for two weeks and so many people came that on that occasion that, um, Stein actually had to run around and hire another house to take the overflow. Oh, wow. And, um, uh, the strange thing was actually leaving Stark because I got, uh, went to Croydon first Gatwick. Yeah. And um, uh, and it was Saturday afternoon. Walked around and okay. You know, and then it became Saturday evening and I got really paranoid. I mean, all these tall buildings, bright lights, horrible machines crashing around and so many people, you know, I thought there and um, I thought, okay, it might, am I becoming paranoid or is it culture shock? And I talked to one of the other guys later, Arnold, who had gone back to Sam Molo and without any prompting from me, without any word from me. He says. I've got there. I've got, I'm scared. Yeah, I, I fully agree with that. I go to Glastonbury Festival from here and I have a panic attack every time with the number of people I can imagine. Yeah. So many humans. So where are you from originally? The short version is that I was born in Acra Capital, city of Ghana, a country in West Africa some people have heard of. Yeah. Uh, my passport says I'm British and I live in Oslo, which is the capital of actually, um, contrary to popular belief in Britain, not Sweden, but Norway. Ah, I mean call a call a Norwegian of Swede. It's like calling a Scotsman Englishman, you know? Right. They're not happy about that. Yeah. Nowadays, it's such a joke. and when did you move to Oslo? How did you end up there? Well, uh, running around on my travels basically, and wound up there and, um, hung around and thought, okay, I can actually, I can actually exist for six months and if I find a job, I'll stay here for a year. Okay. So by the time I'd finished, I'd found a couple of part-time jobs and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And, um, then. I went back again after the summer and everyone says, ah, I had had something to do with a girl. And surprisingly enough, no, actually that's the standard cliche. And um, so I kind of, I guess I kind of settled in somehow and one way or another, I'm now qualified teacher for the Norwegian language in the Norwegian school system, which is all very strange. And, um, how many languages can you speak? Uh, right now, English and Norwegian. Um, how languages, how many languages have I been able to speak? Okay. Uh, you forget them after a while. Yeah, they sit on the science of psychology tells us we never actually forget anything Uhhuh, but we have a very bad filing system. And, uh, okay. Before I actually answer your question in connection with that, the. Some researchers went to visit some ex British servicemen in France because, okay, well everyone's heard of the 6th of June, 1944. Mm-hmm. And they got themselves jobs very easily. It was graveyard attendant, British military graveyards. I mean, there were quite a few graves and as a result of that day Yeah. On all site, all round. And so they met local girls. Yeah. And and then stayed there. 20 years later, some researchers went along to find out how they were doing, discovered they couldn't, could no longer speak a word of English. They'd lost their own language completely. Oh wow. After 20 years, and this isn't a quite answer to your question, but in connection with that a long time ago I met a woman in. Aba, I think it was south of Oslo. And she was running a kiosk and I was with a couple of English guys and she actually confessed that she was actually British. Mm. But she couldn't speak English anymore. And what had happened to her was that she was in Scotland and Okay. We perhaps we've all heard of, or have we SOEs Special Operations executive, which had lots of branches and stuff. And uh Okay. They were, they were the bunch that, um, they, that destroyed the heavy water plant. Mm-hmm. Uh, heroes of Telemark, there's even a film about it. And they were all local lads. So they were in Scotland doing commando training. That's where she met him. And, um, okay. They all knew the area they were in British uniforms, but, uh, they certainly had the advantage of local knowledge. Anyway. So finally, um. She married him. Mm-hmm. And settled down in Berg. Mm. Um, just after the war and had been there ever since. And way back then, um, okay. Television wasn't even around and until a bit later and in the fifties there wasn't much television in England either. It was coming and satellite TV wasn't there. And so of course, had it been today, she wouldn't have lost contact with her own language.'cause so much of it comes after the box and it was on the tele. Yeah. So many so, and so many films and stuff. Okay. Getting back to that. Um, uh, okay. Um, German, apparently my. Accent is very good. Language has evaporated. I've got talking to a German guy, Malaga airport, actually. He asked me where, where I was from in Germany. I had to admit, wait a minute. And my first, he asked me if I spoke German. Lucy wanted some, wanted sort of assistance from me. Yeah. And I said, well, actually, yeah, but I, for forgotten so much, I really can't speak anymore. And um, I'm not quite in the light of his last question to me. I'm not quite certain how he understood that. Mm. But um, so the accent's still there. I seemed to get the grammar right. Did you live in Germany for a bit then? Uh, I was in Germany quite a lot actually. Uh, I had German at school and the teachers were all German. So, um, that, mind you, it's, it was still, I guess school German, you know? Yeah. But, uh, but the accent was there, the grammar was there, and. Did was a bit in Germany back and forth. Yeah. And uh, so apparently they told me I could do it quite well and I have German a little by the way, for what that's worth. And, um, are you, um, did you go, are you a professor at all? You seem like you are. Uh, I've heard that one before actually. Um. Actually I've been very much involved in adult education. Yeah. I don't know if I was not exactly being a professor. No. As far as I know, but, um, yeah, that's a leave at that. Okay. Lots of details there, but, um, and, um, uh, French. Yeah. Uh, I had French at school. Uh, lots of people have, and they can't speak French and I'm not quite certain that I could either. But, uh, I lived for work, um, a year in Algeria. Mm-hmm. And they told me I did it very well. Um, well, okay. Perhaps they're being just polite, but I seem to be able to handle it. Um, Spanish got Spanish a level. Yeah. Um, here we go. Um, uh, did not have Spanish at school, but uh, just, um, I discovered an ancient book in, not actually in the school library, but in a bookshelf there. And it was called Heath first Spanish course. Mm-hmm. Published in 1920. Hmm. So it was a bit ancient. But the language didn't seem to have changed much I discovered. And I thought, well, just for the, just for the hell of it, I'll do one exercise out of this book every day just for my own amusement. So by the time I finished, I took a Spanish O level to everyone's astonishment. And it turned, I discovered later that that had made me a bit of a talking point among the teachers. So, uh, I discovered that much later. And were you at school in Ghana? No, in England actually. Okay. But my parents were hanging around in Ghana. And, and Nigeria. And um, so were you sent to boarding school? Yeah. Yeah. And it was a very nice boarding school. It wasn't one of these horrible. Uh, sort of military academy type things, the boot camp type things and, okay. Question. Have you ever heard of a film called, if it came out, I guess in the mid sixties, I think? No. No, I don't. Okay. It's Malcolm McDowell plays in it, and it's about a public school and it's a bit, sort of surrealistic, it drifts away from reality. And then you suddenly realize, wait a minute, we've gone into a fantasy world, and they discover the, they discover an armory from the Second World War, probably under the, uh, under the school stage. And somehow rather, they wind up having a bit of a revolution. Brilliant. And um, and I saw it, uh, together with a guy I knew. He asked me if I'd been to a public school and I said, well, no. I certainly went to a boarding school, but not a public school. Mm-hmm. In, in the, in the normal sense. And he said, I did watching that film, you have no idea what it felt like. The resentment welling up inside me. So, um, but some people enjoyed public school. Yeah. So you enjoyed your school? Yeah. Yeah. It was a really, really Okay place to be, uh, boys and girls from six until 18. Yeah. Whereabouts in the country? Was it? East Sussex. Oh, right near Su. Yeah, SU I lived in Brighton. Yeah. Okay. I, around that area. Alright. Okay. East this, it's, this school is just outside a place called a Tin Pot place called East Grinstead Uhhuh. Yeah. Which, um, which actually a surprising number of people actually seem to have heard of, which surprises me so you seem to be very interested in language and history. That's the things I've picked up from talking to you. Well, my historical knowledge is very. Very patchy. Certainly I'm very interested in language. In fact, see I actually studied Norwegian at Oslo University. Mm-hmm. And that has to be explained a bit because the system as it was then. Yep. Things have changed. Most many things have the, there were no tuition fees. There was a registration fee, which was pretty nominal. It tended to vary between about a pound and 10 pounds to pen, I dunno what made it vary, but basically registered. And, uh, at, um, at, in, at that point in time, part-time jobs were growing on trees. You know, people were crying, crying out for, um, casual labor and stuff. Mm-hmm. So it was very easy. To find a job or find a few jobs, which didn't actually get in the way of anything. Mm-hmm. And what really attracted me to it was okay. Now there are lots of people who are gonna think I'm mad when I say this. That's okay. We like mad here. Mad is fine. And one thing. Alright, let me, let me ask you a question if I do you, okay. They've taken it off the syllabus. If I say pausing, what does that, does that say anything pausing part to pause? P-A-R-S-E. Okay. Uh, it, no. Okay. It used to mean, um, okay. You can actually pause a, uh, a computer program, which means go through it. And that was a new use of the word that I hadn't heard. It meant that you Okay. English O level. Mm. When they had, they had O levels and stuff back. In my time. They've now, I think roughly GCSEs. Yeah. I, I don't, I think they're roughly the same thing. More or less. Yeah. And, um, uh, the English O level language, or English language O level was actually an exam that, um, uh, that really a lots of people had a lot of difficulty with. And as far as I know, there's no English language, a level. There never was. And okay, to get a useful combination of O levels, uh, you have to have English language mathematics, or a natural science. Yeah, a foreign language that doesn't seem to be a requirement any longer. And, you know, um, whatever else you could sort of clock up basically. Yeah. But those three things, and the English language exam was in three parts, which, the first part was a piece of pausing. Okay. Now what does that mean? They get, you've got a text and you go through it. You have to identify, you have to analyze it. What each word is doing in the sentence, what its relationship is to all the other words. Yeah. So basically you start off, right, find the verb and you can either divide the sentence up into subject, verb and the rest of it, or um, just subject and the rest of it. Yeah. And then, um, identify all the bits and pieces, subordinate clauses, what each word is doing there. I used to love that. What exactly is happening in the sentence. Yeah. And, um. To my mind, I have a feeling it gives some kind of insight into something. I dunno whether that's purely psychological or whether it's well, but do you notice it in different languages? Like from talking different languages? Oh yeah. The things that you are able to express in one language is different to another. Uh, they, the formulation is different. Yeah. And, um, uh, we, um, and, uh, and this, okay, this was called pausing. Previously it had been called construing, I think. Okay. Or whatever. And in Norwegian it's called Ali, which means functional function analysis. Okay. Like, what exactly is the function of each word? Each phrase and the whole thing. And, um. Then the next bit was prey, which is a very useful skill to have. You get a, um, passage and you're supposed to reduce it to a certain, a given number of words, which they give usually approximately a third. Yeah. Which, so you go through it, pick out all the different points, um, and then you summarize the important points. Yeah. And if you've got a few words left over, you don't produce padding. You find out which is the most important of the points that you. It didn't include. Yes. And um, that, uh, is a very useful skill, Uhhuh and, uh, okay. The prey, uh, most people manage that. Um, the third part was an essay and well write an essay. Yeah. And the, um, the language bit is, um, divided into three bits. The history of the language, both old and modern. Um, the dialects. Okay. The dialects are very important. The important thing is how did they, how did they arise from Old North? Am I right in thinking you're an expert in old nor? Uh, I did, uh, that's a good question. I did get that reputation at one point. We can't remember any of it now. And the reason. I got that reputation, uh, not, not deserved to my mind was that, uh, at one point they, um, they used to have, uh, as a separate exam at one point in progression. Mm-hmm. And, um, it used to be oral and I thought, oh God. Okay. So I, I didn't, I never crammed anything. Mm-hmm. Uh, I just read it again and again and again and Okay, that's an I stem and how. Um, how did it arise from Proto Nordic and Common Germanic and the whole thing? And so I thought just to make sure that there's nothing, no questions when I have to, when I have to sort of learn it by heart. And when, when I had to learn it by heart, I discovered I already knew it, just by having looked at it. And then do you have a photographic memory? Possibly? No. don't. Not to mind. Okay. Not to my mind as far as I know. Okay. Because I learned scripts and I definitely couldn't just read something and then know it afterwards. Yeah. No, no. I mean, I've been sort of looking at it for a while and going through it. Right. Uh, I just sat in the lounge all by myself with these books and, uh, coffee and went through it all. For five days and learned actually a lot, you know? Mm-hmm. Very peaceful, very nice surroundings. And, uh, back then it was an oral exam. Normally it takes half an hour. They had me in there for an hour and a quarter. And, um, the, uh, so, um, you, well, you go in and you've got an examiner and a sensor. The examiner answer questions, the sensor decides which questions are to be asked, and um, then they send you out and they get together and discuss what mark to give you. Mm-hmm. And, okay, so. I get in there, I get presented with this piece of paper, translate these, those two verses of Al, Al means the speech of the high one. Mm-hmm. Odin. Okay. It's an ed poem and you can't really do, um, do an ed poem unprepared unless you're a real expert, a saga. Um, you can actually, the vocabulary is so limited. Um, uh, you can do it if you, if you've read one, you can understand the rest of them, basically. Mm-hmm. Although you do notice a difference in style and some of those, uh, they're quite dramatic. And, um, so I had prepared it and, uh, went through it. I went through the, the, the two verses, and on the basis of those two verses, they grilled me on the entire, on the, the entire grammar. Okay. It's highly inflicted, um, for cases and so on. And, and what was that and where does it come from and how did it, uh, produce, come into that form? And, and I thought, God, okay, so long as she sticks to the grammar, this were some bits of the syllabus I hadn't read. Mm. So long as she sticks to the grammar, I'm safe. And, um, and she, they hammered away and hammered away. And I made one blunter, which they let me know about afterwards, which was, uh, okay. All these poems are written down in the manuscript called Codex Codex, code Codex, the, um, the Royal. Codex or whatever, which was actually written in on I in Iceland. Mm-hmm. And, um, then it was taken to the, uh, museum in Copenhagen. And, um, they said, okay when was it taken to the museum? And I said, oh, around, um, in the 11 hundreds. That was such, such so totally wrong. And so they said actually no, it was 1662. Right. So, of course I remember that date. Um, uh, okay. They said, well, that was just totally wrong. It was obvious you were flicking a gear there. And tragically the, the manuscript was destroyed in the university fire. But the contents are recorded, so. Mm. And, um, okay. So I went out. Thank you. Mm-hmm. And then of course, usually in such situations you will be called back, uh, at some point. Mm-hmm. After they've deliberated and they'll tell you uh, what your results are. Not that ish. They are not merciful. They sort of broadcast it so the entire corridor can hear it. And I thought when that was okay for me, because I'd actually got an astonishing good mark. Excellent. And, um, uh, that's how I got that reputation. Yeah. Got a reputation being, um, the, an expert, um, the secretaries in the records department actually knew who I was, which was interesting. And, um, they said, yeah, well, with a name like yours and those kind of marks, you're going, you're going to be remembered. Okay. That's nice. Not all my marks were that brilliant, but those were, and, um, so yeah. And so for, for a while, but if you don't use it, I mean, it disappears. I'm pretty hopeless. Yeah. And um, yeah, we've run into a backwater. No, that's right. Well, this is a good opportunity for us to pull a ring. If you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting me at patreon.com/joly Rose. This is something that I absolutely love doing, making this podcast, and it's the way that I've figured out to create an audience and a platform for me to express myself as an artist from the limitations of living on a rock in the middle of nowhere. And. I love limitations. I think it's key to the creative process. It's something that I've often worked with, even when I had the freedom of living in Brighton and being in the UK and having access to vast numbers of people and the ability to travel around the place and go to different venues and be in the world of the arts and take shows to Edinburgh. I still like to put limitations on the work that I did because I feel like when there's too much choice, it's. It's kind of overwhelming. So I do feel like. There's something quite inspiring and beneficial about the limitation that I have of being on this small island. I, it doesn't paralyze me or fill me with dread or fear. It fills me with the excitement of, okay, well then what can I do? I can write books and I can make podcasts, and that's what I'm doing. That's what I'm creating from my Little Rock. And I love it and put on festivals. So yeah, it's working with what you've got and limitations actually make you focus because yes, something about being in Brighton and having all the options in the universe means that it can be quite overwhelming. So I have some creative offerings that are coming up that. You are welcome to come and join in with. So I'm gonna be opening BoomTown, which is very exciting. I'm gonna be on the Lions gate stage as part of the opening ceremony. And then we have a venue called La Luna Coven, which is in Old Town. So if anyone's gonna be at BoomTown and wants to come along and say hello, please do. That'd be lovely. I'll also be at Kentwell Hall in Suffolk, uh, in August after Beam Town. For, uh, a week dressing as tutors. So if you live in Suffolk, I'm fancy coming along to Kentwell Hall, then you can come and see us performing as the Mamas at Kent Royal's reenactment in August. Also we are gonna be walking a pilgrimage across the uk, September to October. And if you go on my social media, which is Korea Arts, K-R-I-Y-A-A-R-T-S, and that's on Facebook and Instagram. I've put the dates up for where we're walking and when. And so you can have a look at that and see if you are in the area. So if you would be interested in us coming along and performing for you, or if you want to feed us or if you want to, um, how us for the night, or if you're fancy coming and walking with us for a day or two, get in touch and let me know there's also my book's gonna be coming out at the end of the year, which is called Walking with Autumn. And it'd be great if people could pre-sale order it because pre-sales are everything. So I will be launching that as a crowdfunder soon for people to be able to. Get those early purchases in, and you'll be able to choose whether you get just that book or if you get a collection of all my books signed and if you get'em in hardcover, et cetera, and all the money will go towards paying for an illustrator and just finishing the last bits of the book off. And last but not least, it is the British Podcast Awards and there is the. Listeners choice, so if you enjoy this podcast, please go and vote for it at the British podcast awards.com/vote type nonsense. In the chaos, click vote. Reply to the confirmation email. It's as easy as that. And just, yeah, let's get, get an award for this podcast. That would be amazing. So if you enjoy it, please do do that and share that you've done it with people and let people know that you are supporting this podcast. So thank you ever so much. And now on with the show. So you know about rings, we've chatted about rings before. Yeah. I said to you, the reason why we do this is for an element of not the nonsense and the chaos. So it's letting the universe lead. And then you said something interesting, which is, is the universe chaos? So what's your thoughts on that? What's your thoughts on whether the universe is chaos or not? Well, um, well I, Einstein actually rejected the quantum theory to begin with. I dunno quite what he know, what he did at the end. Um, okay. Einstein is the very famous father of theory, of relativity, as most of us know. Yeah. Even if we anything about relativity. And he said God does not play dice with the universe. Mm-hmm. Okay. Things are very systematic and they follow certain rules and things happen and so on. But the thing with, um, quantum mechanics is that. Things seem to be, uh, can get very random. You don't even know what's going to happen. And this good old professor, he Heisenberg with, um, his uncertainty theory and poor, um, that poor theory, it's been being used to justify so many things. Mm-hmm. Um, there's a, a rather interesting physics experiment actually, that you send a stream of electrons through this metal plate with two slits in it. Yes. And yeah, you get this an interference pattern as though you were sending night through. Mm-hmm. And. So wait a minute. This means that the electron must have gone through both slits for there to be an interference pattern. This is a wave pattern associated mm-hmm. With, um, with the electron. And how can the electron have gone through both slits? Yeah. This is a matter of, um, sort of, people say, well, perhaps the wave pattern went through both slips, but the electron didn't. And, um, no one's been very good at explaining this. And the strange thing is, and I don't know quite how it's done, that if you photograph the, um, photographically, you can actually discover which slip the electron went through. If you do that. You don't get the interference pattern. Which means that there is no such thing as an impartial observer. So this means that our, uh, our understanding of what happens stops the phenomenon occurring. Mm. And that is very weird. Yeah. And someone, someone else has modified the, the, the model saying the electron goes through one, one slip, then it goes back again and goes through the, the other slit and said, well, actually it's, it's just a model. Who knows? Yeah. What exactly happens? And Einstein, because of this randomness, um, he, uh, he said, oh, it's all got to do with hidden variables. It's not really random. So yeah, we don't know. I always think that it's, it is like to do with scale. So on one scale. Things fit with certain rules, but then on another scale they don't. And it's almost like the more in focus as in this scale, things are, the more it fits the rules that we know. Yeah. But the further out you go and the further in you go, the less it behaves. On the other hand, um, uh Okay. On a, on, on a macro level, things happen on a micro level, things are a bit different. Yeah. Which is roughly what you said. Yeah. And actually theoretical physics, is Okay. Very much. Very much magical magic in a real technical sense. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well have you define ic. The theoretical idea of magic is that you you manipulate the reality behind the illusion that we experience. Yeah. In a way, by doing things to the, the real reality behind it, you will have an effect on what happens in our illusory world. And so very often people who practice magic like Kalari mm-hmm. Um, in Nigeria, they, uh. They will do, perform some, uh, some ritual, and if it doesn't work, of course, then they'll have a built-in explanation for failure. Yes. Like, you know, crocodile mother had a bad day or something. You know, you never know. But the ideas there I, I there's come up a couple of times in podcasts, uh, where I've had conversation with people and actually one of them was a friend whose, um, partner had died and she saw him in a dream. And, um, she said to him like, what's it like? And he said, well, it's a lot more organized than you'd imagine. Yeah. And that's how I feel is that it seems like chaos to us because we don't understand it. But actually, if you understand it, then it's not chaos, but we, you know it, whether we'll ever get to that point. So you are then with knowledge of the reality behind our illusion, which we can only understand in terms of mathematical equations, um, allows us to make things happen in our illusory world. I mean, most of this table seems pretty solid to us, but actually most of it's mostly empty space. Yeah. Yeah. This is great. I love it. Um, brilliant. So if you pull a rain Alright. And then that will, um, inspire what we're gonna talk about. Okay. And do you know the res? Yep. That's LI don't know the names of them. No, but, but that's the L ruin. Yes. Lagals. And it's the water. It's the RO of water. Okay. And so we are on an island in the sea. So what made you keep coming back to Sark? You came here, you've been coming here for 11 years. What is it you love about the place? Yeah, I like it. Yeah. That's it. I like it here. And when I get here, I think. Ugh. Yeah. A sort sigh of relief somehow. Yeah. And of course the first time I was here, there was this girl, ter, who um, she sort of looked around and said, Toki must have been here. This is just like the Shire. And I thought, Hmm, okay. And one thing, the first time I was here, there were, okay, the first, was it the first evening? I think the first evening I was up at the mermaid here. And, um, actually on the way back got lost because I missed the turning. And because of course no street lamps, okay, I did actually have illumination, not that I was using it. And I thought, okay, wait a minute. I dunno quite where I am. And at that, uh, at that point, there was one thing that looked like could be a street lamp, and that was the pub sign at the mermaid. Okay. So I managed to find that, right. Let's start again. And, um, and then I didn't miss the turning and I managed to find my way. But, uh, that was, um, how the first time, okay, how do I, how do I know where Mermaid, how do I know where Mermaid Lane is? At the top of Mermaid La Lane in Ruca, uh, on the. Left hand side coming from the mm-hmm. The was, there used to be what I used to call the pixie sculpture. I don't know if you remember that. No. No. And it was a sculpture which was rather active. It was made of metal, iron steel or something. And, um, it was move it mo it had moving parts and it had toad stools. Hmm. You know, fly ic ones, you know, red ones with white spots made of iron and orchid things. And water came down and. Went into the container, a little hole at the bottom, lets water out. But obviously water went out more slowly than it came in. So when the container got full, it then tipped over and there was a sort of, um, stalk with a little ball at the end, which then hit one. The mushroom is relevant, mushroom went bing or bong and wow. And, uh, and you had, and there were quite a few of these just going. And so you got, I guess the, the melody or whatever, it did repeat itself at some point because it was quite regular, but it didn't seem very regular because these things were. Just pinging and ping, um, hitting, hitting the toad stools with different, um, oh, that sounds really cool. And I think they then, I think they turned it off because some neighbor was complaining and I'm not surprised. Yeah. And then it's not there anymore, you know? I think that's very tragic. Yeah. And um, so that's one, uh, that was one of the things that struck me. And, um, has it changed much? Is there anything noticeably changed? Uh, changed? Um, smoke, uh, not allowed to smoke in pubs anymore. No. Able to do that. Uh, what else has changed? Um, electric, uh, when I first came there was a public, uh, there was a pubs illuminated pub sign. Yeah. And the pub sign got blown away. And, uh, what else has changed? Yeah. Um, no motor vehicles were allowed, privately owned, except Okay. The night of Sark, the same year he's allowed to have a private motor vehicle. Mm-hmm. Okay. And as you know, tractors are around, but there are very definite rules about what you're allowed to do with them and everything. And, um, which can be bent. I mean that the bus service is not really allowed by law, but it's kind of necessary. So it's a lot. Yeah. And, um, you could have have you read much of the law? No. You just sort of know free. Yeah. Just from what you've heard. Yeah. Yeah. And I was wondering whether you could, uh, read Norman French then? Uh, I managed to I thought, okay, I can, I can under this is very odd French, very strange. And I can understand what is written here. God knows how it pronounced, how, you know, how it's pronounced, but I can, can work out what it's, what it actually is saying. Okay. So, uh, man, I manage that one. But can you, so can you recognize Sarkis at all when you see the, the Patois? Is it there isn't any relation to that and Norse? No. Well, actually I don't know much in the way of Patois. MI know that one. Mm-hmm. That's, and, um, that's about the only one, only bit of ua. I know, actually, I think uh because it wasn't written down as a language, it was an oral language. So you don't Yeah. There aren't sort of manuscripts that are around or anything like that. I heard, I heard that someone has actually codified it. Yes. The, a guy called Martin did do that. And is it still okay for a language to be called living? There have to be two still living people who speak it, there are still two. There are still two. There were only two left. Yeah. All right. One isn't enough then being used. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We are trying, I mean, there, there has been, he has, um, recorded it and has taught some of it to the school children and uh, yeah. So it's barely living. But yeah, it would be sad to lose it. It would be a shame, but we'd need people to learn it. It might be a good idea to write, write stories in it. Yeah. Children's stories of whatever. Yeah. It's very difficult to get people to learn it. When it's so unused. Yes. You know, the yeah. And also what's the point?'cause in a way, should we learn French, you know, and that would be a bit more useful. Right. So it's that thing of, but it's, but also it'd be really sad for it to be lost, but it is pretty much lost. Do you feel like you are, um, from anywhere, rooted anywhere, or do you feel like you're sort of a, sorry, do you feel like you're from somewhere or do you feel like you're a person of world? Um, yeah. When I say Pete, where are you from? I have really real difficulty trying to answer that question, so I'm not quite certain. Uh, uh, where do you feel most at home or most belonging? Well, actually at the moment, um. Norway, Oslo, I suppose. Yeah. I don't know. And I seem to sort of blend in with the local population as, uh, actually in Mar in 1991. This is kind of funny. Uh, I was a witness in a court case, and it was my job to explain to the court how the accused and the interrogator had managed to misunderstand each other completely without either of them understanding. There had been a misunderstanding so basically the, the accused had managed to sign a statement which he had done without a lawyer and you can withdraw your statement. Um, not always a good idea because it doesn't do good things for credibility. But he didn't withdraw his statement. He just said, but that is not what I said. Yes, but this is your name, written by you. And so, in spite of the fact that the statement had been read back to him or read out to him clearly and loud, loud and clear. Mm. He still had not understood what was there. Right. And uh, this caused a certain amount of confusion. So I wound up, I actually knew the guy, so I knew quite a lot about his, let's say, language shortcomings, right. And also with my background, I knew a bit about language and how, how language works. Mm-hmm. And, uh, the defender said, held up the statement and says, Mr. Okay, the best translation is deputy sheriff. But these things are very difficult to translate anyway, so Deputy Sheriff Gunderson says, this is the truth. What do you, uh, regards this as? Reality? What do you say to that? So poor Mr. Gunderson. Okay. So, um, uh, and explained how, because of the the explained that the accused had, quote, insufficiently or, uh, insufficiently, is that the word that I used? Unusually? Yeah. I can't remember the first word. Let's say insufficiently or unusually or un normally well developed general lingual skills. Mm-hmm. Okay. And explained with examples that everyone could understand from everyday life, how such misunderstandings could, um, in the case of this person could take place. Mm-hmm. And then, okay. That seems, and the. The, the defen, the defense lawyer said afterwards, that was extremely clear. And I said, well, perhaps I didn't say enough. He said, oh, you said exactly enough. You stop exactly when you should. Exactly. That was excellent. And um, so the prosecutor gets up and starts asking me a couple of stupid questions just to get the ball rolling and, oh God. Then he asked me two questions in one, and I thought, okay, come on. Yeah. Because, but he, he, the, when you get these two questions, get them both explicit. Yeah. Any order you like or the uttermost appropriate in the situation, and that each one have its own separate. Correct answer. Yeah, that's the point. And he, I said, get on with it. And okay, so if you, if you ask a normal witness this, they might get stuck. Ask a normal expert witness, they might get stuck like that character did. Yeah. But I couldn't understand why the hell he got stuck on it. But, and um, but if you ask that sort of question to someone who is supposed to be an expert with about linguistic things, you're like, wow, come on. Kidding. And so I said, oh yeah, okay. And very politely, do you mean, and for the life of me, I can't remember what he asked me. I've been kicking myself ever since. Do you mean this or a or do you mean. B. Okay. Okay. They're now both explicit. Mm. And then he says, just answer the question please. Okay. This sudden change of manner. Yeah. Okay. That's a normal piece of manipulative, rubbish. And what he actually meant was say yes or no. Now, if he had said, just say yes or no, I would've appealed to the judge and said, your Honor, I can't answer this question. It's a half truth. Yeah. And I have promised on my honor and my consciousness to tell the whole truth, the, um, uh, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. All right. So if the court was to release me from my promise, I'll answer the question. Yeah. But, um, I can't answer the question without breaking my promise to the court. Yeah. Okay. That would've blocked that one. Mm-hmm. But he didn't, he said, just answer the question please. And he's expecting. A yes or a no, I mean, whatever. And I said, well, well certainly that's what I'm here for, very politely. And, um, um, and as the first, uh, step in the process we have to which of the two possible questions you would like an answer to. And so, and I say the answer to the first question, and I'm going to answer the ex, the implicit one first of course.'cause he can cut me off at any time. Mm-hmm. And he sees, where's it go, where it's going, no further questions. Mm. And turns round and goes to sit down. And so I say to his back, very, sort of in a very fatherly fashion, but didn't, uh, didn't you want an answer to your question? And he didn't answer. And the judge had to step in and said, it doesn't look like it. So the jury started laughing and what the manipulation becomes visible. When it doesn't work. Yes. When it works, it's pretty invisible. Yeah. When it doesn't work, it sort of becomes very invisible. I love that. That's what sort of a kind of magic is, is that the Yeah. The, the behind the scenes mechanics of what's actually happening once you understand the matrix. Yeah, absolutely. That's really cool. Well, actually, that brings the song perfectly to the Chaos Crusade. Alright. Because that's what the Chaos Crusade is, is something that you would suggest to listeners to try out, that helps them break the matrix. I mean, maybe learning a bit about linguistics sounds like quite a good thing, but anything you'd suggest to help break the matrix for someone to, don't whatever in Okay. In confrontation with a manipulator, keep calm. Okay. If you're going to get angry. Make sure you know what you're doing first. Mm-hmm. Don't answer spontaneously. Would it be a good idea to get angry now? And if the answer is yes, because sometimes, you know, a sort of piece, a blast, uh, go, um, may actually suddenly do the trick mm-hmm. Can get rocked back. Mm-hmm. Um, and they may be implying something. Okay. Let them make it explicit before you relate to it. And in this, yeah, in this context, it's right. Ironically. Uh, a few months later I was actually arrested myself and it was a very, very minor matter by the time we'd and I never denied it. Um, by the time we'd finished my, I was sentenced to 14 days suspended. Mm-hmm. Okay. Which is the mildest penalty for which Norwegian law makes permission, makes, um, provision. Okay. So obviously I hadn't tried to shoot the king or anything. Mm-hmm. An extremely minor matter. And then the, the interrogator I. Uh, I was arrested on that. Important Sunday evening. Okay. Okay. At, uh, nine o'clock. I remember that. And, okay. So, um, and then we'd begin 12 hours later. Okay. Wind up in a cell. Yes. Okay. Then I get breakfast, right? Half past eight. Yes. No milk and sugar for the coffee. Uh, okay, nevermind. And, um, then he I'm collected by the interrogator who starts off being very, um, very friendly and everything and offers me a cigarette that won't happen these days, but then, and, um, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then starts asking me a little bit about my life story. I'm not gonna tell him. Mm. Um, okay. This character was a total narcissist because, um, none of my life story had not, nothing to do with anything. If he was trying to extract from me tactically important information, then I would've understand. Understood. But, uh, he was just basically trying to, uh, he was just a control freak and, you know, his idea seemed to be, well, I can get anything out of anyone, uh, more or less. And, and so I, I was very polite to him and, uh, I said, no, I think we'll stick to the realities of the case. Okay. Any sensible police officer would just have said, right. You go along with this. Yes. Sign here please. Yes. Five minutes. Okay. You'll be hearing from us. Okay. I'm probably gonna get a fine, couple of hundred quid or something. Little Very irritating, but not very crippling. Mm-hmm. And, um. And that would've been it, but not this character. He just carried on all day. I okay. And so he says, yam, you can, uh, confess to that. Yes. Right? And, and then he asked me about my past. No. I think we'll stick. Are you gonna make a statement, aren't you? Because I, we've discussed this before. I say yes. And leave it there.'cause the word statement seems to have changed meaning? Yes. And he's trying to, trying to rattle me. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, come on. Just follow carefully what he says. um, give them an answer to exactly what they've said, not what you think they meant. If it's forget implications. Mm-hmm. You can relate to implications if you like, but on the whole, just listen very carefully to what they've said and answer. Uh, give them an answer to what they've said. So that was Ray Howard. What a fascinating man. It was such a joy to get to know him better and to really be observing the way his mind works because I've sat and chat to him for hours at the pub, and we've talked about runes. He told me loads of amazing stuff about runes. Apparently the like places where ruins are written, which is on stones in Norway, and, uh. Sweden and places, you know, in the Nordic countries, they're written so they're not seen. So they're written on the base of rocks that are then upside down. So apparently they're not meant to be seen. They're not meant to see the light of day, which I just thought was fascinating and. He just is one of those people you could talk to forever and record everything he says and you will constantly be surprised and inspired and taken on a journey by his conversations. He knows so much, but he's. Yeah, I mean obviously when the older you get, the more, there's just so many corridors to his mind, palace that you feel like you are lo you're gonna be lost. You know, it's like a maze. But he does always find his way back to the beginning of what he was talking about, which is quite amazing. Sometimes it can be an hour before he gets back to the start of what he was talking about, but he does manage it, which is always very impressive and there's just so much in there. So, yeah, I'm. Pleased to have captured a snippet of some of ray's in a world and to have seen a little bit of the mechanics of how his brain works and what it is that inspires him and where it all comes from. And yeah, the, the rules and the, the linguistics and grammar behind language, just, it was interesting to see it through his eyes and how. It tells us so much more truth about the world than what we the, the content of what we're saying.'cause the content of what we're saying is masking, and it's what we work with in fooling. You know, there's all the stuff that we say that's pleasantries and that's polite. But within a split second, we read someone straight away. You know, as soon as you walk on the stage, people read you. And the fool's job is to. Be that is to be that honest thing, to admit the thing that you are, that people can see rather than shielding it or masking it. And then to invite the audience to do the same so that we can all just be ourselves and be the, the real being behind the mask of the words that we use or the image that we present. So fascinating stuff and it was so lovely to chat to. Wonderful Ray and yeah, thank you ever so much for being here, as always, and I shall see you again next week. So see the norm.