Nonsense in the Chaos

#41 The Feminine Lineage; Naomi Smyth and an alternative route to Fooling

• Jolie Rose • Season 2 • Episode 41

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I first met Naomi through working at Glastonbury Festival putting together the performative elements and installations for Shangri-la, the late night part of the festival, or the naughty corner, as we like to call it. We had worked together for a couple of days before we clocked that we were both fools and it all suddenly made so much sense. I’ve been interested to learn more about Naomi’s story and arts practices for some time now, so interviewing her for the podcast was a great opportunity for finding out more about her world. 

Naomi is a PhD researcher at Bath Spa University, focusing on the creative and technological responses of theatre artists to COVID restrictions. She’s an immersive theatre writer, director and performer with experience as an independent filmmaker and freelance videographer. Based in and around Bristol, she’s spent years working with Bristol born arts collectives like Shangri-la, Boomtown and the Invisible Circus. 



The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

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Thank you for all your support -x-

the. Welcome to The Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host, Jaylee Rose. Today I am interviewing my dear friend Naomi, who I have known for seven or eight years. We worked out, and I know her through creating. Installations and interactive experiences for the visitors who come to the area of Shangrila at Glastonbury Festival. So Shangrila has been around for a long time now. I, I'm not quite sure when it started. It took over from Las Vegas, so Las Vegas, and then it's more recent. Manifestation, which is shangla are known as the naughty corner at Glastonbury, and we are the late night bits. So once the main stages have closed down, then people come over to the naughty corner and we're up till later and. When people come to the area, there's a lot of messaging. There's a lot of political messaging. There's, there's a lot of heart and soul in what's happening. So not only is it hedonistic and fun and the late night bit, but there's some really important key, uh, messages that we are getting across every year, and there are to do with inclusivity and creating a better future. And. Tearing down and, uh, sending up and making fun of capitalism and neoliberalism and marketing and things like that. So. It's brilliant. I love it. It's, it's one of the most, politically engaged art projects that I work on. I'd say. I mean, everything I do has got a political edge to it, and all art is political, but I, this is probably the most political out of the work that I do, the most overtly, I guess, and it's going in a new direction this year, which I'm extremely excited about. It's been. Uh, sending up and taking the Mickey out of high streets for the last few years, and we had people being estate agents and trying to sell portal leases for millions of pounds and. Old tents and stuff like that. And we had people doing chugging, which is charity mugging, where people come up to your clipboards and lanyards in the street and try and get you to sign up for a charity. So we were doing things like that, signing up to give money to Elon Musk so that he could carry on being awesome while you, you know, weren't really doing anything that useful with your time and energy and money, so you might as well give it to him. Things like that. And. Naomi is the calm in the storm of all of this where she orchestrates the theater element of the Shangri La family, and I support her and work with her. And we'd been together for a couple of days. The first year we worked with each other before we clocked her, that we were both fools, but from a completely different lineage. And so, I'm really interested to hear where, where she's gonna go with this because it's a completely different take on it all to the ones that we've already explored with Howard and Ja, uh, Joe Trimarco. So yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation and seeing which direction we're gonna go in. So, without further ado, here is the awesome Naomi Smith.

Jolie:

Welcome to Naomi Smythe, which I've, just found out that's how we pronounce your name. And I've known you for years now. It's been about six, seven years. It's been quite a while. I wanna know where you are and I wanna know what's going on in your life at the moment, because the last time I spoke to you, you were possibly only just moving into a house from living more on site in a more onsite situation. So what's going on? Where are you living? and what you up to?

Naomi Smyth:

Well, I think

Jolie:

um,

Naomi Smyth:

each other for seven or eight years but I am, currently in a lodge. Which is like a very large static, basically like double static. You might have seen them on motorways. They're like now sliced in half on the back of a truck. so we've lived, in this field for about 10 years now. and for the past three or four years we've been moving in and out of it. the structures, we had made the winters quite rough, like a, with our daughter fine for us before she was born. But, now we've got a, much more livable structure and, it just feels like a house

Jolie:

Excellent. and do you live near Kay?

Naomi Smyth:

No, around the same time, a lot of the people that I worked with at the Invisible Circus and in that whole creative community moved to the outskirts of Bristol. It sort of was a few years after squatting became illegal and rents in Bristol went up massively. And we all just got, a bit tired of crumbing into rented rooms. it's partly an age thing as well. and the whole Temple Cloud crew are on the southwest side of Bristol, in the Glastonbury direction. And we're on the northeast side of Bristol, so we're sort of all in a ring around Bristol. there's a few different, sites and communities dotted around Bristol now.

Jolie:

Tell me about the Invisible theater then, because I, I, so I want to know about your. Journey with fooling and I guess maybe the invisible theater is part of that, but, I'm particularly interested in the fact you come from a different lineage of fooling to me.'cause we've interviewed quite a few fools on the podcast and it was such a shock when we'd been working together for, I think it was like a, at least a day. I think it was like the second or third day of being at Glastonbury, where we were like, oh, you're a fool as well. That's why we completely get what each other's doing. And it was a real joy and such a surprise to meet someone from a different lineage. So talking about your history and your Yeah. Your journey for the fool.

Naomi Smyth:

I studied theater and

Jolie:

Yes.

Naomi Smyth:

theater, but I wanted to be in weird old derelict buildings with a load of weird artists from different disciplines.'cause those, that was the stuff that really excited me when I was studying it. But I didn't really think that stuff was happening very much. and then went and studied filmmaking'cause I, didn't wanna just be doing auditions and stuff. I wanted to just be making weird stuff. in 2006, a massive, art squad opened in this sort of four story, five story garage called the Audi Garage. And it was the Invisible Circus. And, they were staging cabarets and specific, gallery shows. And then ultimately this immense site specific promenade theater piece, full of circus and a lot of weird characters and improvised performance and roving musicians. and it all had this kind of like anti-capitalist sort of psychy satirizing, but like a lot of joy and a lot of fun as well. I started, I'd just got my own

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

and I started filming them.'cause it was like vision of like. The kind of thing I wanted to be involved in, like the happenings in the sixties and data and bowhouse and just like all these nutters holding up in big old buildings and making whatever they wanted to. and ended up following them through a lot of different squats in Bristol through to becoming a company that was more sort of negotiating access to like bigger and more spectacular buildings as the years went on. And then about 2011, so 2007 I got involved in making shows

Jolie:

Seven.

Naomi Smyth:

2008 I think I met Kay. been like coming up with weird characters and improvised bits and bobs with Sarah Fielding, who was like the theatrical director of the circuits at the time. then Kay came down from London and we

Jolie:

and then Kate.

Naomi Smyth:

she was working at Shangrila in Glastonbury then.

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

she wasn't in

Jolie:

Um,

Naomi Smyth:

the full creative direction of the field like she has been the past few years. but she'd been there from the beginning since it was lost vagueness. And so she really got the, like, how you would get into a character in an installation and you would stay in your character for

Jolie:

stay in your car for

Naomi Smyth:

to audience members

Jolie:

hours.

Naomi Smyth:

making them laugh and just finding out what kind of interaction they wanted to have with you and like finding the game and finding the funny and like the relationships between everyone. And so she did. Through part of the lattas, which were, this was this lat at lost, Las Vegas at Glastonbury, where you could go and actually get some stuff washed or you could get like yourself pampered a little bit. But like, it was this sort of east end lat

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

where they were all like, had their own characters and had their own shared history. So we really connected on that and me and Kay and

Jolie:

So

Naomi Smyth:

a lot of stuff, for Carnevale shows. That was an invisible circus show. We did four iterations of it, in this massive old derelict public building. It's like a triangle, Bridewell police station. So some of it is still artist studios and I think one

Jolie:

of it.

Naomi Smyth:

a venue, but it's for youth project now. But, when the Invisibles first moved in there, was like derelict fireman's quarters and it had like a fireman's pole and like a practice tower offices and it had cells and it had a magistrate's court and just all of these mad sets all to do with power as well, you know, and like, power and the law and like very exciting things to be in if you make anarchic work. so that was part of it. But in all of that, I met hundreds of

Jolie:

So that was part of in all of that,

Naomi Smyth:

it's still, if I'm around someone who was there at that

Jolie:

still, know,

Naomi Smyth:

out of the

Jolie:

around seven

Naomi Smyth:

at that time, there's

Jolie:

times.

Naomi Smyth:

a feeling of home That's this really beautiful gift that we all had, like making those shows. A lot of people were living together. I didn't live there, but just felt quite close and embedded in there. And I was still filming until 2011. I made a feature length film the Invisibles called Circus. No, just rehearsal. And that's on YouTube now, it's an hour and 40 minutes long. I'm super proud of it.

Jolie:

Oh, cool.

Naomi Smyth:

milking

Jolie:

Super proud of it.

Naomi Smyth:

and stuff for a bit and then hid it for a bit thinking, oh no, I bet I can get some money out of it again. And eventually I was just like, it's just I'm, no let it go. You can just watch it. But, so I don't know. There's a lot in amongst that time. Holly stop it.

Jolie:

time,

Naomi Smyth:

teaching

Jolie:

Holly?

Naomi Smyth:

and she offered her clowning workshops to the Invisible Circus. that was the beginning of her becoming this clown teacher. in her process of becoming a clown teacher, she studied with more or less every clown and fooling teacher she could get her hands on. One of those was Frankie Anderson, who was who as Holly tells it, originated fooling in Bristol and Jonathan Kay briefly, And then they split ways

Jolie:

Yeah. She taught Jonathan. Yeah.

Naomi Smyth:

of fooling. And so Frankie

Jolie:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

Holly studied with her a lot and then, but hadn't been, so she was using fooling in her own practice, but hadn't been sort of teaching it and sharing it explicitly. until I think about 2010, 12, I'm not really sure. she'd been teaching it a couple of years. I think

Jolie:

teaching

Naomi Smyth:

went to see the first

Jolie:

a.

Naomi Smyth:

show of fooling that I'd ever seen. Some of my friends, ed Rapley was in that cohort. Adam Blake convened the whole thing'cause he wanted to learn fooling for a solo show he was making. and I could not believe it. I was like, just,

Jolie:

I

Naomi Smyth:

On fire to see like individual performance. just do a show. Just not no premise, no props, no. Like, it's like, hmm, I'm here. What am I gonna do? anything.

Jolie:

am

Naomi Smyth:

And for them to fly in that,

Jolie:

and for them to fly.

Naomi Smyth:

and hilarious and sometimes like arks and a bit shit. But like mostly I, I've, I've rarely, I've rarely not enjoyed a fooling show. Like it's probably my favorite medium. So I had to train, then I had to learn how to do it. So I've been doing that for about 10 years.

Jolie:

Yeah.'cause actually we've talked to quite a few people about falling, but I don't think anyone, has heard yet what a falling show is like. So you touched on it a bit there that nothing's prepared. It's a bit like watching a tightrope walker, but as a performer, like you, you're putting yourself out there without anything, which is a really foolish thing to do. Why would you get on a stage with nothing prepared?

Naomi Smyth:

Yeah.

Jolie:

but is there any more to it than you would like? What is it that's, yeah. What is it that sort of set you on fire about that? Because it probably sounds just like absolute torture to anyone listening.

Naomi Smyth:

I think,

Jolie:

Well.

Naomi Smyth:

I think Holly's a good teacher of it, having been through a lot of. Clown teachers will just lo you to the wolves and tear down if you're not immediately funny. If your jokes aren't like bam, bam, bam. she's sort of like, I know that a lot of performers thrive on that, but I

Jolie:

Know?

Naomi Smyth:

And

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

Holly found it sort of quite damaging to her confidence as well. But so the way she does the training, is quite soft and you kind of all learn to like support each other. And it's an atmosphere of like noncritical feedback kind of thing because it kind of takes us red that if you're going up and performing in front of people. Without any clue what you're gonna do, you're not always gonna feel great about it, and you've already got plenty of inner critics, who are gonna give you shit about it, and it can feel quite vulnerable internally. So for me anyway, the training is in, like courage and trusting yourself, and not, not minding people, seeing you struggle,

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

them paralyze you and carrying on through the sticky bits. So you might get like a collage of

Jolie:

And so you.

Naomi Smyth:

get a bit of someone'cause you change spots. Okay. So the way we would do a fooling show is Holly would, we've started sharing facilitation a little bit more now, but it was always Holly before he would frame it for everybody and tell the audience

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

the form is. because if the audience don't know that you haven't rehearsed they don't know that none of it's written, I think for one thing, like it's not as exciting. It's not it that you don't know that there's a drop below the type rope. So she would do that framing holding. And then would have slots of 20 minutes, sometimes half an hour each, and you would go on and

Jolie:

go

Naomi Smyth:

see what comes up first and whatever comes up first. You play that. And

Jolie:

whatever up first.

Naomi Smyth:

a form it is very open. a lot of people, their first pooling shows like when you're training, a lot of what comes up first is like howling terror. and it's like you're advised to sort of play that. if that's what's there, like play it, show it, I always say it's so funny'cause that is like when the audience understand what you're doing, if, if they see a performer play that they get it immediately.'cause that's like, that's the reason everyone doesn't do it. cause like, that's one of the things that comes up is just like,

Jolie:

Yeah, it's terrifying.

Naomi Smyth:

like what if I say nothing? What if this is shit? What if I say something really self-incriminating? What if I, you know, what if I haven't earned my place on this stage by the end of it? And it's like, but usually if the first thing is howling terror, each piece, each personality or mode that you go through each fragment. We call a mask. So if the first mask is the, the mask of Harling terror, you start with that one. You might amplify it, but you're not gonna do it for 20 minutes. Might return to it, but something else is gonna emerge. When you've held in

Jolie:

Something,

Naomi Smyth:

while, then you might be banging your hands on the floor and you notice something sparkly on the floor and pick it up and like then you're in a different mask and something else is happening. Or you find yourself funny and then you're in a different

Jolie:

find and.

Naomi Smyth:

at the scared one. and you can put all those pieces in dialogue with each other. there's something about it that's very emblematic of. Like in like what it's like inside to be a human being?

Jolie:

Yeah. What, what's happening on the inner world with all the different voices? It's interesting to hear that.'cause it's a different structure to the falling that I work with. We call it a repertory company. So we have our repertory company, but we don't, the thing that I've always noticed with you guys is I think that you are better at performing in terms of, the ease. It's easier for you guys to perform. There's a, there's an ease and a playfulness and a, freedom that you have from your. W lineage that I think, we are a bit more thorough, browed and a bit more, hard on ourselves. On the one that I've trained in, I feel like there's a bit more cosmic depth to the one that I've trained in. It feels like there's a bit more of a, like universal, I dunno, magic, shamanic ness to it. even though he doesn't, Jonathan doesn't send him himself up as a guru. There is quite a lot of philosophical and I dunno, mystical kind of discussion and aspect to it. But, something that I have noticed, and I think this is true of all of the sort of teachers you were talking about, the ones that are hard on people, that they really bring out, the shy, unassuming people that haven't yet really fully expressed themselves, like they're really into those people. Whereas if you are someone who's already quite self-expressed and out there and quite an extrovert, they have to break. It's almost like. They wanna break you down. And I dunno whether it's because they themselves were people that were quite shy and they don't like confident people. Or whether it's, because people with a bit of ego, I dunno, I dunno whether it's for people with a bit of ego needs breaking down a bit. I dunno what it is, but I kind of got to a point in myself where I was like, I don't think you are ever gonna forgive me for how confident I am. and it's not all ego. I, I struggled to, you know, let go of my ego. But it, I think everybody does, And so I found it refreshing to be around you guys'cause it felt like. The people that you work with and bring to Glastonbury and the freedom they had was from a much more confident and playful place and less melancholic and kind of delicate and gentle, which is what it felt like. My world basically in my world, if you are a melancholic, shy, gentle, delicate thing, which is wonderful'cause they've got so much to give and often don't have a spotlight and center stage place to do it, then they really shine. And us sort of more confident people are a bit like, you know, shut up. whereas with you guys it was like everyone could just go for it and be as big and loud and crazy as possible. And that really sits Glastonbury.'cause you can't be all delicate and vulnerable performing at Glastonbury. You've gotta be very thick skin. So it was refreshing for me. I really enjoyed that.

Naomi Smyth:

Oh, good.

Jolie:

Oh good.

Naomi Smyth:

I think

Jolie:

Yeah. Well I think

Naomi Smyth:

few fools

Jolie:

I've always tried something.

Naomi Smyth:

but increasingly there are people who've, who've just done improv or, different types of training who haven't necessarily done. the full school. but it's definitely, I think a lot of people as well have just done a lot of festival work and you do end up with this sort of Teflon, Teflon skin about you, you know, you've got like engage the people to come and play with you'cause that's what you're there to do. But then also, like, you get people, you get wasted people, you get handsy people, you get aggressive people and you've just got to like, whether you are trained as a fool or not, it helps, I will say that, but way, if you're gonna keep going back at Shangla, you have to understand that like. It is not like an audience that's gonna sit and be quiet and you don't know what the individuals are

Jolie:

It's

Naomi Smyth:

Like

Jolie:

not.

Naomi Smyth:

individuals are gonna come and splatter their personality onto you as well, and you're just like, okay, right. I'm staying in character, I'm doing my thing. Like, are you enjoying it? Like, oh, whose boundaries are gonna get, stepped over And trying to make sure they enjoy it. But also, yeah, I mean a lot of people I know have been done festival performance these hours on end in character especially late at night, have experienced some like aggression, some like sexual harassment. to not take it personally and to be able to take care of each other as a crew and just to know You can just snap out of character and tell'em to fuck off that's allowed. it's necessary. And you've gotta, maintain your boundaries

Jolie:

So

Naomi Smyth:

different kind of improvisation, right? Like interpersonal dealing with whatever comes along. And then someone might be super shy and just really curious intimidated to talk to you and like, how easy and fun can you make it for that person to engage with what you're offering?

Jolie:

I'm always surprised at how, Unproblematic it is performing to such a hedonistic crowd. I've not had any very unpleasant experiences. I've had the odd kind of like, you're a bit Mm. But, it's never been, and yeah, and like you say, I dunno, seven or eight years, I've never had a horrible experience. It's always been fun. And considering performing to zombies, it's quite incredible that we've managed to have so much fun with people. it is really playful because people are in a very open head space and so they're up for the craziness and the weirdness and you're taking them to a different reality. I just love that. I love that we're, blowing people's minds. That's something that I really enjoy about it.

Naomi Smyth:

Yeah. I.

Jolie:

I wanted to ask you about the work that you've then moved on to doing because you've gone into quite a different direction and you are doing your PhD. are you still loving the work that you are doing or are you sick of it and you never want to touch it ever again, but tell us about where you are. Trajectory is taken you since.

Naomi Smyth:

Yes. Well, so from back when I first started with the Invisibles, I've always had a tech angle to my work. during that time I was a university technician teaching video tech, so like video cameras, microphones, edit suites, and making video myself. And I brought that into the invisible circus stuff. So I'd Like looping TV channels, different shows we were doing. So like found footage and like old adverts and spoof adverts that we had made and like spoof TV shows that we had made. And it would all be this, like, this is what I think the telly would be like in this world. working at a university, I work at Busbar University, and I have often had that as a part-time job that enabled me to creative stuff and, take advantage of the long academic holidays when they didn't need me as much to kind of their kit and stuff like that. it's been quite supportive for my practice. in media studies you come into contact with people who are using tech for the arts One of my colleagues was into immersive sound, so we made a binaural sound installation, I drew on the fooling for that. I researched it and wrote the script and performed it. my friend Ruth, who's done a PhD in Binaural Sound, sound, designed it and edited it, I made a little installation. It was a writer's desk, called the Writing Mind. So the voices in the head would, when the writer sat to write, come from all these different directions. And there were sort of distractions and fears and self-doubt coming from around here and like focus and seeing the light ahead coming from this way and like kind of placing those voices that you would get in a fooling show kind of around the head in the soundscape. And I applied for a PhD in emerging technologies. what I was gonna do was look at productions like War of the Worlds, or BoomTown at the time had a whole venue that was full of a lot of VR experiences And I'd been working for them for several years at that point as well, running micro venues. And that's what I was gonna do, is look at how immersive theater in person, immersive theater is using emerging technology and kind of how it meshes in and the commonalities between entering a fictional narrative in virtual reality or in a spatial soundscape versus doing so in person with live performers how those are interlinking, if they are, how does it function, all that stuff. And then Covid happened and all of that work was immediately illegal and it was, you know, theater was canceled indefinitely. So, I pivoted my PhD to be about what are immersive theater artists doing in this time? specifically, we are people who don't think in the way of like, we present the show on the stage and you sit over there.

Jolie:

Hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

doesn't translate perfectly to video. Everyone knows that there's a shared

Jolie:

Hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

there's an embodiment. That's missing. It's like you are in a space that's resonating and vibrating with whatever's going on at the stage and whatever everyone's feelings are, but it translates more easily than medium where you are coming face to face with someone and saying, I've got stories to tell you. How do you wanna hear it? You are part of it as well. are playing this role and I'm playing that role. And the kind of stuff we would do with the Invisibles Shangri La or BoomTown, where the performer casts the audience member, and offers a game. So we've done job centers, done campaigns, we've done, Charity muggers, like Street Charity, muggers last year. and playing with these interactions that people already understand, but that aren't usually a source of and

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

and make a conversation happen? And that

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

the reciprocity of it, the back and forth of it is the pivotal part it because. In my experience, that part is very dependent on eye contact, language, all the different types of body language, how close someone's willing to stand to you, their gestures, their posture, what you can hear, and sense of their breathing, like eye contact, super important, tone of voice, stuff like that. And like, we can, we can do some of that over video, but can't see my whole body and the eye contact is illusion of eye contact. You know, like I feel like I can look into your eyes, but it is just a picture of you and the frame is not, you know, if I'm looking. Into the, like, the eyes of the audience. I'm staring into this like pinhole camera on my laptop, which feels completely dehumanized and weird, but I'm making like eye contact. so what were immersive theater artists doing to get as close as possible to that feeling?

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

three case studies. One is a telephone show, amazing telephone show called The Tele Library by Yannick Trapman O'Brien. one to one phone conversation where you bring part of the show and he brings part of the show and it's very reciprocal, but there's no nonverbal communication.

Jolie:

There's no

Naomi Smyth:

it's a social VR show that takes place in

Jolie:

welcome to Social,

Naomi Smyth:

need a headset. which is, makes it quite inaccessible for a lot of people. But they,

Jolie:

which.

Naomi Smyth:

that's a beautiful show as well.'cause you can make the audience member into this small child and the performers play the parents. Then you know what your role is and you play out this drama, you're playing someone else and their childhood memories and like, and it's quite disorienting and it's a bit

Jolie:

And quite

Naomi Smyth:

coded as well.

Jolie:

designed.

Naomi Smyth:

nurturing and holding of like how intimidating that might be for an audience member

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

in a completely, completely alien digital environment. And another one was like a Zoom show. In boxes with kind of cutting between performers. and that was the least reciprocal, but you could be present as an audience member by sort of lighting yourself in your home. so the audience could see each other, which is a thing that wasn't available in the others. and one whole chapter is all the stuff that I tried out with my own work and

Jolie:

One

Naomi Smyth:

the Ridiculous, with the Fooling Company, we were delivering week, full school altogether, six of us with Holly, when the lockdown happened, and we started out doing it on Zoom and on phone calls and like making recordings that people could do exercises to. I then gradually built up to doing a fooling show on Zoom, When the lockdowns were just like starting to lift, half of us were comfortable to be in a theater and the other half weren't. So we did a show where three of us performed at home

Jolie:

Coming

Naomi Smyth:

and that was streamed onto the back of the stage at the wardrobe.

Jolie:

wardrobe.

Naomi Smyth:

performed in person at the wardrobe. And we had like an invited of 10 people gave them free tickets and they all had to wear a mask and stuff like that. but we also streamed that whole thing to an at audience. So that was many. Oh yeah. I made a VR show.

Jolie:

So that was many. I made a vr.

Naomi Smyth:

show called

Jolie:

I made a solo

Naomi Smyth:

I got,

Jolie:

VR

Naomi Smyth:

Council

Jolie:

show

Naomi Smyth:

YCP funding to do that. And I worked with an artist who made me a landscape that symbolized my internal world, was

Jolie:

landscape.

Naomi Smyth:

sort of visualize some of the things that I would be showing people in a full show, but couldn't fully show people

Jolie:

Visual.

Naomi Smyth:

and digitally. I made scans of my home environment and my

Jolie:

Hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

which was this little cramped little caravan full of bits and bobs. there were characters, different avatars that were like my younger self and different masks of mine. I would switch avatars instead of just doing it with voice and body language like I would on stage as a fool. So that was an interesting experiment. played with a lot of stuff and I am still interested in it. I think it's still relevant, even though we can be together physically now technology's just this layer that's into waven with everything and kind of increasingly So the kind of presence you can have through technology and sort of looking into that and how you can use it as an artist.

Jolie:

Lots of it's carried on and translated into our, continued life. Like the moon ceremonies that I do every two weeks were from a, what was a public show that was meant to be done in the Brighton Fringe Festival, and we got the funding for it. And then because of lockdown, we couldn't do it. And then we had the costumes, which is what I wear at BoomTown. And I use them now still. but we just did it all online. So we were all there in our separate spaces and we really went for it with the backdrops so that they corresponded with our costumes and with the elements. And then we held the moon ceremonies online and actually they work so well. That's why I've carried on doing them. So I've done them ever since 2020 because actually ceremony through, Pointing to people on the screen. Basically someone chairing a meeting, because I think the thing with Zoom is it's people talking over the top of each other. It can get a bit chaotic. So when we were just hanging out, socializing on Zoom, it was a bit of a mess. But actually holding ceremony where the person holding the ceremony is going round each person and asking everyone individually what they're going through and how they are and what their, you know, what their response is to whatever the stuff is that's being said, that works really well. And it just feels like a really special, sacred space and actually is a really profound space. And it means we can be together from all parts of the world. And I think creativity really blossoms when there's limitations. And part of me doing this podcast is the limitation of being on an island as a theater maker. I can't perform to. Thousands of people. There's 500 people here and there. So it is like, how can I do something with what I have, which is basically starlink and a computer and a microphone well, I can do this. this has been what I've come up with and it is lovely because I wouldn't have done this otherwise, but the limitations have pushed me to do. So, yeah, it's cool. I just wanted to say about. Immersive theater. The thing I love about immersive theater is that it's about reality. the thing I got from Fooling, which is the cosmic bit, is that the whole of life is theater. you know, I can totally see that in the work that you do as well. playing with people and pointing out that we're all playing roles and that, we know how to behave in this situation'cause it's a script of sorts and that we are always able to, twist that script and mess around with it. you realize that the whole thing's made up and that we could do something different with it.

Naomi Smyth:

Exactly when people realize, oh, I know this script.

Jolie:

Exactly.

Naomi Smyth:

we get to do it slightly differently time.'cause it's a game and everyone knows it's a game

Jolie:

Yeah.

Naomi Smyth:

it's important.

Jolie:

Brilliant. Right. Should we pull cards then? So we're gonna pull three cards

Naomi Smyth:

love

Jolie:

and we'll see what the universe wants us to talk about. Yay. Excellent. I'll um, just do my finger really slowly and you tell me when to stop. So I'll go like this.

Naomi Smyth:

Stop all this.

Jolie:

Ooh, that's a good one. So it's the priestess. So the priestess is, I think this is a bit like what we were just talking about with reality. Sorry. She's vibrating. She looks like she's vibrating out of reality. I suppose. I'm interested actually, with this card, I'm interested to know what you think reality is and what, yeah, what do you think it's all about? What's your interpretation of this madness?

Naomi Smyth:

There are so many layers to it, aren't there? And I think, having to earn a living and the particular ways in which we're expected to earn our living now kind of almost keep you on a bit of a track on sort of a few, a few layers. And almost not time to, come out, to go up or to go down, to kind of sink to the depths and be very still and go inward. Because of the demands to earn. And it's like very, very hard to, because in a workspace, I mean, some people have a job where this isn't necessary, but in most workplaces, even if they're remote, you are required to spend most of your waking hours behaving as if this bit is the main bit. And it's the most important bit, and not even this bit, but like the particular script of your workplace and the particular script of, you know, the desired outcome of your work. And if you adhere to that sort of layer well enough, you'll be remunerated. And then you get to eat enough somewhere to live and then, you know, and if you don't. If you deviate off of that too much and you haven't got enough to eat somewhere to live, if you can't like nourish yourself and your family, then it's even harder. And that, there's just no space to lift off or sink down and explore. But there's so much either side. and this part really is, an illusion, but we're just encouraged to think of it as real life, you know?'cause we're not set up to facilitate each other to deviate from it for any length of time. you've almost only just got time to point out that it's not real, but no one's really got time to comprehend the implications that.

Jolie:

Like, yeah. Okay, great. I'll put that on my list of things to think about at some point. Yeah, no, totally. I like that. That's a really good description because I feel very, like I, on the one hand, I'm a Capricorn and so I'm half goat and half fish and the Capricorn goat bit of me is very political and, literal and scientific and practical. And then the fish tail bit of me is really Wawa and out there and I think I am pretty balanced. I have quite a balanced life of spending time in both. But I really like the way that you just described that thin layer because we are so tricked into investing so much time and effort in that. I think most people don't. Have that opportunity to think elsewhere and that that's, I don't think that there's necessarily anyone purposefully doing that, although that could be questioned. But there is definitely a benefit. It's a bit like the same as us being put into years of age groups at school. I don't think that was necessarily done for nefarious reasons, but the upshot of that is that no one's ever learning from previous, achievements in terms of overthrowing. authority or control. We're always reinventing the wheel because we don't hear from the generations previous that they managed to overcome some obstacle by doing X, Y, and Z. We're always like having to start from scratch because we're only talking to our peers. And so yeah, there's, there is a, there is an element of control by being kept in these thin layers. so yeah, I think that's really interesting. I like that.

If you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting me on Patreon, which is patreon.com/jolie. Rose. I absolutely love making this podcast. It is my dream job, and if I could make this make me a living, then I would be living my best life. I already am living my best life, but I'm doing it without any money. But, uh, I'm getting by. I am getting by, but I. Would love it if I was able to actually make a proper living out of this and not have to do, you know, extra work, working in a pub and things like that. And I create a lot of free work in the world, which I thoroughly enjoy doing'cause I want work to be accessible and for people to be able to. Explore the things that I find useful. The tools I find useful, like following the moon phases, which I help people to do through holding moon ceremonies on Zoom and putting out articles in the local press, and which I also share on social media and, videos. I put videos up each moon cycle as well, and so people are able to tap into these, through. Free mediums, and I love doing that. And I want things to be free as often as possible. I occasionally do charge for things, and when I do, it's because I need to make a living. And also, I feel that sometimes you need to make that kind of financial commitment to make the work work deep enough, uh, which I've talked about in previous podcasts. Like sometimes you need to invest in what you're doing for it to really hit. Properly and land properly. But on the whole, I try and make my work free and accessible. And so this podcast is free for anyone who wants to listen and if you are able to financially support it, then for three pound a month you are saying thank you and you can do that through Patreon. And then for nine pound a month, you are also getting the videos of the. Podcasts. And so you get to see me interviewing my guests or me just chatting to myself in a room on my own, which is always fun. So hugely appreciate everyone who supports me. Thank you ever so much, and I love doing this so long. Make, continue. And if you aren't able to be able to financially support, then you can spread the word far and wide on social media. Talk about it, tell your friends about it, rate it, give it. Star rating and um, yeah, just. Keep listening and keep telling people about it. I am going to also be doing some live work, uh, that you can come along to, which includes the Kooky Club on the 19th of June in Guernsey. If you are in the Channel Islands Each month I, for the kooky, the Secret Kooky Tea Club, I interview a surprise guest and they're always an interesting, inspiring person. Normally a creative or an artist, but sometimes scientists, all sorts of different things. Curators and I interview them and we have a different chef each time who creates a delicious. Meal for us to share and it's to encourage people to be able to have a nice out without drinking. You can drink alcohol if you want to, but there's lots of beautiful alcohol free drinks available and it's just to get conversation going and yeah, spark debate without having to be drunk. And it's a brilliant evening. I love it. I'll also be at Glastonbury Festival at Shangrila in not very many weeks time. And if you are coming to Glastonbury Festival, do head over to Shangrila and see the incredible. Change of direction and creativity, mayhem that we're gonna be sharing in the naughty corner. So do come and have a look and I am walking another pilgrimage in September. September and October. Gonna be walking from land. Well can Le Bowl near LANs, end to the Norfolk Coast. And we're gonna be performing our mama's play of Georgia and the dragon along the route. Uh, so it's along the Michael line and. I will be doing a book launch, presale tour as part of it. Encouraging people to pre-order my new book, walking with Autumn, which is about the first pilgrimage that I walked. And yeah, pre-sales really help push a book, so it would be great if, uh, people could order their copies ahead of time just to give. Give it an initial push and get, get it up there so that it's noticed by the bookshops so that they'll stock it. So I'd really appreciate if people did that, and I can't wait to share it with you. I'm very proud of it. I'm finishing the editing off as we speak, and yeah, it'll be coming out in September. All very exciting. And yeah, I think that's it for now. So on with the show.

Jolie:

Let's do another card. Oh, right now you can tell me when to stop, Jane. That's an interesting one. I haven't, Pulled that one for a while. So this is the nine of discs. So this is an earth card. We're, we've just had the earth dark mean. So we're in a, we're in a kind of earthy energy at the moment. So this is gain, I mean, what does that mean to you? Is there anything that, that, that means to you? Or even looking at the image, whether that means anything to you?

Naomi Smyth:

Again, with an N.

Jolie:

Gain, yeah. GAIN

Naomi Smyth:

Okay.

Jolie:

an interesting word'cause it's a bit like, yeah, what does gain mean? How do you gain.

Naomi Smyth:

Oh. Yeah, I mean, you're talking about the earthy energy and living in a field that's very apparent at the moment. like how everything is, has been working on out for quite some time, and now suddenly it's all ready and it's just like, like the Hawthorne and the Magnolia's been gone almost, and like garlic and it's all just like, so there's that.

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

So I'm supposed to just be focusing on my PhD at the moment, but opportunities to get a different job or something that I consider more exciting or whatever, keep popping up. I keep like chasing after those, like a little fox after a rabbit and like, yeah, Distractibility. but just like kind of scampering about like, oh, that sounds good. be better than what I'm doing. I'll chase that, I'll chase that.

Jolie:

Down.

Naomi Smyth:

yeah, it's a lot of work and it's quite fragmenting, of my attention and I'm noticing that a lot at the moment. I'm supposed to just be sitting down and writing bloody big essay, as often as I possibly can.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Naomi Smyth:

chasing things,

Jolie:

Yeah, we talk about in, with Jonathan k the great distractor and I feel like that's part of this layer is the distraction of social media, of tv, of, things that just take your attention, like TikTok that are forever being quicker and quicker to just consume so that your brain's just quickly moving on to something before you even have time to fully digest anything or like really sort of, savor it and devour it and have that nourishment from it because you're then moving on to the next thing. And it's interesting your reflection of the earth.'cause I had a, a moment when I was on the first pilgrimage that I did where I had this vision of. It was, it was getting close to the end. I think it was almost like the penultimate day of the pilgrimage. And I had a Wii next to a hedge and I suddenly had a real emotional outburst because I was sad that I wasn't gonna get to hang out with my hedge friends anymore, and that I was gonna have to go back and sit in a chair and I didn't wanna sit in a chair and I could feel that my body was like, no, don't make me sit down again. And I had this vision of this dirty taral in just covered in muck and underneath it was Donald Trump and Boris Johnson, and just all the noise and nonsense and the threat of war and all this like horrible grittiness under this taral in and above. It was this beautiful hedge and land and sky and everything was stunning and beautiful. And I was being told that reality was what was under the tar pooling,

Naomi Smyth:

Yeah.

Jolie:

I was meant to get back under there and participate in this. Nonsense. Rather than being out in this beautiful, hetero, fresh air, lovely land, that's what is actually real. And that for me is reality. Like even this reality might vibrate and turn into something else. It might be a game or whatever it is, but beyond this thin layer, which is this made up conscious thing that humans have created as a game on this planet, the actual planet. Which is why I would say I'm a pagan.'cause I worship the earth where it's like, well, it is here. It's definitely here. And I definitely worship it. So I'm happy to call myself that without any of the trimmings. I don't assign myself to any, faiths or anything to do with that. But I definitely worship the magnificent land that I walk upon because I think it's worth worshiping.

Naomi Smyth:

Yeah. And it, it's so immensely reductive to view it all as,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Naomi Smyth:

raw material to be turned into like tokens in our little thin layer game, when it all has its own life.

Jolie:

God. Yeah. That's great. As again, I really like the way you're thinking about that. It's, that's what we see it as is it's almost like in, Minecraft or whatever. I don't actually really know how you play Minecraft, but just this, it's just the things to use to, to put within the game is just stuff to consume and buy and Yeah, you're right. It's taken away the, the immensity of what we actually have and reducing it down to just like Lego bricks that we can put together and use, but it's all about using and consuming and taking rather than appreciating what we have. Yeah, no, absolutely. great. Let's do another card. You say, stop. Ooh, She's cool. The queen of wands. So she's very fiery and powerful looking. She looks like she's on fire and she knows what she's doing. And wands is very much about passion and drive and your desire and kind of the, not the head. The head is the wands fire is the, like the bit that makes you wanna do things like the engine behind what you're doing. And she's obviously very, very powerful in her sort of combustion engine. What does that mean to you?

Naomi Smyth:

Just makes me think of

Jolie:

think of like,

Naomi Smyth:

really. people I live with next door in the field who like,

Jolie:

I live with

Naomi Smyth:

like being fueled by a desire to

Jolie:

like.

Naomi Smyth:

do, but all of that fire being like directed towards like loving and joyful and a lot yeah, I don't wanna make any great claims for myself because I used to do a lot more activism than I do now.

Jolie:

I don't wanna make

Naomi Smyth:

a lot of my friends

Jolie:

myself, because

Naomi Smyth:

a lot of their heart and creative energy into Activism for the earth and against genocide and for refugees and just like,

Jolie:

just,

Naomi Smyth:

yeah, trans rights and inclusion and just like, cause as an artist you have to have a fire to make things. so the people that that makes me think of are all quite, um, doing that in quite a connected

Jolie:

Of.

Naomi Smyth:

Like not so much a sort of shut away way,

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

this like deep well of love and connection. like a sort of shared And I'm inspired by that. It's, um, it's sort of fiery, fiery lovingness, and they're not, you know, the people I'm thinking of are not just soft and cuddly, like they're as well.

Jolie:

Yeah. That's what I love about our world. This part of our world Is the kind of mad max ness of it. There's so many times when I'm at Shangrila or like at BoomTown and I just think we are on the right side for the apocalypse.'cause we are really strong with nails. We know what we're doing and we're gonna have a really good time while we're doing it. So I, I'm definitely well up for being with us guys because we are gonna have fun. We've got all the best music. It's yeah, it's something to be so proud of.

Naomi Smyth:

Yeah. People who

Jolie:

Yeah. It's something the squat world's created, I think. Yeah, exactly. I think being in the squat space meant that we had the space and time to create things and I think it's harder nowadays for young people to have that. Space because Squatting's not legal anymore. I mean, there are ways of doing it, obviously, but it just feels like that was a privilege for our moment in time for us growing up, was that we were able to experiment and we had that space for that to happen. And yeah, I feel like working more working class people are no longer part of the creative world or the artistic world. That's the sort of mainstream artistic world in the same way anymore. And I think that the lack of squatting is a huge part of that. I think that we, have been put at a huge disadvantage to not have that space and time to be able to create.

Naomi Smyth:

Yeah. I mean, I grew up. Pretty middle class, but it's a loss to me

Jolie:

Yeah, I mean, I,

Naomi Smyth:

to

Jolie:

I grew up,

Naomi Smyth:

the entire world

Jolie:

but it's.

Naomi Smyth:

much less accessible to have that creative freedom as a young person and connect with a really wide range of people who want to be making stuff and have skills and the drive and deserve that time and that space to do it. But it's so much harder because of like, you know, every space in a,

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

has to be making money for somebody. a

Jolie:

Every space And so my last question for you is the Chaos Crusade. So is there anything that you could suggest to listeners to experiment with and try out that breaks the matrix in some way and just, yeah. Makes reality a bit more obvious that it's a game and put some extra playfulness into our experiences.

Naomi Smyth:

Yes. so I like to recommend, a tiny little bit

Jolie:

So

Naomi Smyth:

pressure fooling.

Jolie:

like teeny, tiny little

Naomi Smyth:

to

Jolie:

pressure.

Naomi Smyth:

pick a mate, pick someone that you trust and that you, who makes you laugh and you make them laugh and, I wrote down a bit of the procedure, like a mi micro version of what we do, when we're doing full training in beyond the ridiculous, but just for you and your mate not in front of a big audience. do a little warmup,

Jolie:

So,

Naomi Smyth:

and maybe try some fooling. So see what comes out when you stand in front of someone who's witnessing you and you just play. So see if you can notice building up to this, but also mentally discard any plans that you're making beforehand.'cause once you've decided to do it, your brain will try to make plans for you so that you're not just standing

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth:

The key is you've gotta stand there with nothing. So you could start with just words or just movement. With eye contact with the person or without, completely up to you. Outdoor fooling can be pretty fun. a lot more to look at and interact with. Stay open to all the sensory environment around you basically. So it's not just brain, but also your body. what's your body feeling? You can make something out of that. if you feel awkward or horrible or angry or shut down suddenly,

Jolie:

If you.

Naomi Smyth:

see if you can just let that show. See if you can amplify that and not pretend that those feelings aren't there.'cause they might just pass if you play'em out and you're only with your trusted buddy. so you do find something, try to follow it and amplify it as far as you can. During this time, you're running a timer. Okay. So I recommend two or three minutes. five, if you're feeling super brave and your buddy is up for it, it can feel quite long, even if it's just two minutes. and then when the timer goes off, sit with your buddy. the feedback model that we use with Holly of a series of questions. the questions don't leave any room for saying that was rubbish, or Here's the bit I didn't like,

Jolie:

and the questions about

Naomi Smyth:

You throw all that out, And it's really important because if something came out that

Jolie:

They all

Naomi Smyth:

vulnerable about, your

Jolie:

really important

Naomi Smyth:

already having a

Jolie:

now that you feel vulnerable

Naomi Smyth:

it from your buddy

Jolie:

that your inner critic is probably already

Naomi Smyth:

would say to the person who's just fooled,

Jolie:

well,

Naomi Smyth:

how is that

Jolie:

so the

Naomi Smyth:

was

Jolie:

would

Naomi Smyth:

you?

Jolie:

say person

Naomi Smyth:

And then the fool might speak and they might speak for one or two minutes. You could do a timer if you want or not.

Jolie:

speak,

Naomi Smyth:

after that, fool might

Jolie:

and

Naomi Smyth:

what did you see? some stuff.'cause sometimes you forget what you've

Jolie:

what did you see?

Naomi Smyth:

if someone could tell you what they saw, what did you enjoy, what touched you,

Jolie:

What did you enjoy,

Naomi Smyth:

did you want more of?

Jolie:

touched you,

Naomi Smyth:

And then you can swap and

Jolie:

and what did you more

Naomi Smyth:

person you are witnessing and your feedback.

Jolie:

and.

Naomi Smyth:

and you might hate it, but if you hate it, you never have to do it again. but you might discover some things about what's going on for you and the games you're playing.

Jolie:

It is just such a fascinating process doing falling.'cause you keep coming up against the same obstacles in yourself. Like I feel like I've been doing it, I dunno, 20 years or something stupid and I don't feel like I've particularly improved, you know, always working with the same obstacles. And it's that thing that you were saying about like, let yourself be surprised. That's the, the way I think of it is don't plan what you're gonna do because it's fun to surprise yourself. You know, like we do a thing where we sort of imagine a red curtain and then we pull back the red curtain and, just start seeing something, you know, and just go with what you see. And I always love that because the red curtain's quite a good distraction from planning. So your planning bit of the brain can just imagine a really good red curtain and then you put it back and then it's like, surprise. What you gonna, what you gonna now see? And yeah, it's just fun to do this because. Otherwise, we're just doing what we always do, which is planning it all. that's the thing. we are making it up as we go along, that that is what we are doing. No one knows what they're doing. That's why everyone has imposter syndrome. It is taking that and owning it and playing with it even more. It's like, okay, can I step outside of this role that I've created already that was completely made up and let's create something new. And that is so liberating.

Naomi Smyth:

Yeah.

Jolie:

Yeah. Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Naomi. It's been amazing to talk to you. And it is a very different feel. the falling lineage that you're from, it feels so much lighter. It's interesting to observe. I think it's more feminine. There's a more feminine aspect obviously,'cause it is from Frankie, but it does feel a bit more loving and gentle. So yeah, it's interesting to dip into it. But yeah. Thank you ever so much. Huge love to you.

Naomi Smyth:

Oh, of love, mate. Thanks for asking me.

That was the awesome Nomi smile. I absolutely loved delving into this different take on fooling. I feel like the lineage of the Frankie Holy Stop it lineage is more feminine, but also more active and more activism, and it taps more into the punk and archic squatter side of me, which is a whole, you know, area of my reality. And it's a completely different area to my spiritual Jonathan K area. So it's interesting that there's these two sort of strands to my fooling experience'cause that they feel so different. And it was great to talk to Naomi'cause she made me think about things from that perspective, from from this other strand perspective. And. I just, I, I love it. I love how, how different reality is all the time and. Yeah, I think everyone should definitely have a go at fooling. I brilliant to just do it in your living room with a friend. I realized that Yeah, you, you are doing it all the time on your own. It's as soon as you've got someone there observing you is the word permission. It's giving yourself permission to be who you are and be as relaxed and as crazy as you are when you are on your own. But with other people, and you probably don't even notice you're doing it when you're on your own,'cause you're just doing it with yourself. You're just in your own heads doing whatever. It's giving a permission. It's such a key word for me. Giving yourself permission to own the creative and spiritual and playful things that you are doing. For them to be able to suddenly be shared. And by doing that, it suddenly ramps them up like, oh my God. You know, you gotta own them and feel proud of them or feel VA that they're valid to share, but they are. And when you do, everyone loves it because they can see you are sharing your inner world and then they feel like they can too. And that's the whole relationship of the fool and the king is that. The king is used to everyone, you know, kissing his ass. And then the fool is just being themselves. And because the fool is being themselves and saying it as it is and and not pretending to put on some act, it means the king feels like they can. And that's what you're doing with the fool and the audience is your sharing yourself so that the audience feels like they're able to. And then everyone is being more honest and open and playful and not just pretending to. Exist in the theater show of life that we've created. Like this is how you pretend to be a human and this is how you pretend to be in society. And this is how, you know, a, a community's meant to behave. It's all made up. And by fooling it, it gets that out there and shows that. And so that's why it's a deeply spiritual thing, which is more like my Jonathan K world and also a great tool for activism and messing with reality and, and. Questioning the constructs of reality, which is what the more activism me, Naomi, uh, strand to falling does for me. So absolutely fascinating. I love it. It's so interesting and I'm gonna definitely go and do some holly slash Frankie workshops to dip my toe into this other version of the art form that I'm. Have been. Yeah, my life's been changed from exploring, so why not? Explore it even deeper and go in some different directions with it. So I'm gonna go do that. That's my, uh, I'm gonna put that in my things to do either this year or next year. Give that a, give that a go. I definitely think you should too. Go and do a, a workshop either with the female lineage or the Jonathan k asking lineage. Go check out Frankie, check out Holly, stop it and have a go. I dare you. Thank you ever so much. It was wonderful to speak to Naomi and I shall see the anon. The.