Nonsense in the Chaos

#31 RevoLOVEtion; Rebecca Kenny and Creating Spaces for Joy

• Jolie Rose • Season 2 • Episode 31

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I met Rebecca at the Academy of Creative Training in 2005 while studying acting. Drama school was a joy, and we shared a fantastic cohort. Since then, I’ve admired her fearless exploration of creativity as rebellion, pushing the boundaries of theatre, movement, and the body.

A multidisciplinary performance artist, music maker, and cabaret clown, Rebecca infuses her work with surrealism, playfulness, and connection. Her alter-ego, Frieda Love, launched a "revoLOVEtion" in 2017, using neo-burlesque, clowning, and physical storytelling to challenge perceptions of female bodies and movement. Lately, she’s been diving into Butoh and Gaga techniques, making dance inclusive for all body types.

Her work is also deeply tied to nature. In 2019, she lived in the Pyrenees on a dance residency, letting the land shape her movement. She sees theatre and dance as ways to rewild the body, stepping back into something instinctual and real. And she has just completed a residency in Colombia where she created the sharing ‘Listen, I love you, Joy is coming.’

A witch in training, herbalist wannabe, and best friend to the moon, Rebecca’s work is radical, playful, and unique. 

Follow her @frieda_love_ 

I can’t wait to have her on Nonsense in the Chaos to talk about silliness as resistance and movement as magic!

🎧 Come and listen. Let’s get moving. Let’s get silly. Let’s rewild ourselves.

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com 

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

Please consider supporting me through patreon.com/JolieRose and like, follow, and review wherever you get your podcasts from. Share about Nonsense in the Chaos far and wide! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Thank you for all your support -x-

#NonsenseInTheChaos #Podcast #New Episode 



The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

Please consider supporting me through patreon.com/JolieRose and like, follow, and review wherever you get your podcasts from. Share about Nonsense in the Chaos far and wide! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Thank you for all your support -x-

The. Welcome to The Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host, Jaylee Rose. Spring has definitely sprung. We had the spring equinox and we've had some beautiful celebrations here on Sarc. Had a women's circle the other night where we had, a group of lovely ladies come to my house and we did some egg magic, which is one of my favorite types of magic to do, where you nourish yourself with a boiled egg, having decorated it with your intentions. And we did that and that was lovely. And then, we went and made a visit to the fairies, which I'm not gonna tell you anymore about'cause that's a secret. But it was wonderful. And we had a beautiful night and the sun has been shining and went sea swimming quite a few times this week. Not as many times as I would've liked, but I have so much to do at the moment because the year is just thundering on. I can't believe we're quarter of way through the year. Beltane is looming. There's only a month now until Beltane. Which seems to be going okay. I've also got, some exciting things on the horizon, which I'm not going to tell you about just yet, but lots of other exciting things happening, which I'm, working on and beavering away on, it's brilliant to be doing the podcast again. I'm enjoying being back in this space and I've got some wonderful guests lined up, including my guest today, Rebecca Kenny, who it's a. delight to share her beautiful way of seeing the world Just her disposition is so cheery. she has a really cartoony face. my main memory of her from drama school is being like a goat or a sheep and her chewing with these great big, cartoony eyes she was so cute and I'll always see her as a goat. She was brilliant and it's a wonderful conversation. Exploring creativity and being an artist without being a big famous artist and just living a creative life because it's not easy, but it's also an absolute honor and privilege people don't really understand it. I'm looking forward to sharing Rebecca's story with you, and it's made me laugh and giggle all the way through. So hopefully we'll be bringing some sunshine and joy into your week. So without further today, I'd like to introduce you to my dear friend, Rebecca. Kenny.

Jolie:

Let me begin then by saying that this is my friend Rebecca Kenny and we met at drama school in 2006. Is that when we started?

Rebecca:

2005 I think.

Jolie:

So you, we met in a drama school and we went off and did our theater careers. And we've been doing things ever since. And we, we, we're two of the people that are still doing stuff. Like I think, you know, there's a few people who still are, but we, we've kept trucking, kept on trucking the whole way through, so congratulations. Well done.

Rebecca:

you. Thank you.

Jolie:

And so what made you move to Berlin? And what, like, how do you feel about Berlin? Cause I absolutely love Berlin.

Rebecca:

so it's been five years now I've been there,

Jolie:

Wow.

Rebecca:

I mean, because of the, you know, time, we already spoken about time, it's absolute nonsense. the pandemic didn't help that I moved just before Brexit. So that was one of the reasons I was like, I really want to live outside of the UK. In my life, I think it's really important for me to do and I was like right It's now or never because it's just going to become so much more difficult off brexit So then there was like a deadline And with berlin, it was always somewhere I wanted to live. I Visited and I was like, I love this place. And also I think mean five years ago at least I think it's changing now it it offers A bit more ease I was in London before, 10 years, which I love London, but if you want to be an artist, the only way you can do it is if you're in your 20s,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

because you have to have like incredible amounts of energy and resilience and because it's so expensive and it's this real like go, go, go culture and the art scene there is very capitalistic, it is, you know, because no one can afford. To not make money,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

you have to make shows in two weeks and it has to like if you're doing a scratch performance, it's still like full production values, you know, it's like

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

way of making and berlin offered It's much cheaper to live in berlin I can have my own flat and still have And still be an artist, you know, and I wasn't ready to throw in the towel as I think a lot of artists do because it's just It's really challenging. There's no money. You, you, you're not validated a lot in any other way. You have these magical You know, and this is why I do it. But if you're looking for validation financially or from the industry, then, then it's, it's really a struggle. And so yeah, I got older. I was like, I want more ease. I want more And I want to still be making work. And also it's, it's interesting to, to transfer what do to Europe, to Berlin

Jolie:

Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

notice how things, how audiences are different or how that I like, how making is different,

Jolie:

Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

think as well, because I mean, I'm, my work is maybe a bit more experimental. I never felt, I think I left London also because I didn't feel Feel like I could do what I wanted to do there and be welcome and berlin Is much more it allows much more for experimentation. I think people audiences here are much more open To not knowing what they're going to get

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

I think there's a whereas uk audiences london for sure everyone's so Educated about going to the theater, know, like it has to be. And, you know, I think being at Edinburgh fringe really killed this for me. Like I had a hard time there. Like it has to be packaged and a product and people have to know what they're going to see before they'll give anything a chance and you're not allowed to fail. In

Jolie:

Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

it's a bit too out there, but you're allowed to try. And, and be experimental and audiences will come along and, and give it, give it a chance, you know? So I like that. But yeah, interesting because my, I didn't realize that my work is actually really, really English, like

Jolie:

really English.

Rebecca:

So yeah, I always say I, some stuff just doesn't translate. It's so

Jolie:

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. Yeah. No, you wouldn't.

Rebecca:

and what doesn't, even in a culture I thought was pretty similar, you know, I was like, Oh, we're both in Europe, like, like Northern Europeans, similar, you know, you know, histories entwining, I thought we, it wouldn't be that different, but it really is like more so than maybe even here in Columbia, that in some ways, you know, so I lost my train of thought then, but yeah, an audience. But it's just different. It's just different. Like, I do a lot of cabaret and, you know, like Germans. German audiences, they're very, they just, they don't really react. So when you're in a cabaret like there's, they're just like, but they're really, they're watching and they are interested, but, and they like it, you wouldn't know. I mean, when you're clowning, you know, like a cabaret is very, very expressive to the audience, let's say, or burlesque even, you know, a bit of Yeah, I've had times where I've been like, God, I don't think anyone got that. I don't think they enjoyed that at all. And afterwards they've been like, yeah, that was really great. Thank you so much. Loved it.

Jolie:

really enjoyed it. Like, oh, good. Well, you could have cracked a smile.

Rebecca:

me on your face?

Jolie:

Yeah,

Rebecca:

Tell

Jolie:

totally.

Rebecca:

to your face. But

Jolie:

always think, because I used to think that the sounds of like German, like a bar in Germany sounds more like England than say France or Italy, where the, just the musicality of the language is more from like the more Latin countries. Whereas Germany sounds like England, But it just isn't peppered with laughter and the English laugh, but actually a lot of it's nervous laughter. Like we just, we laugh to fill in gaps and we laugh to make people feel at ease. And we laugh because we're a bit nervous and embarrassed. Whereas the Germans are just actually very comfortable in their own skin and don't feel like they need to do anything. I remember I was, I was living in a squat in Berlin and I had this moment where I was Oh, this fucking shower. Why is it not? Like, because there was just a bath with, you know, those hot water things that's literally like those immersion things on the wall and you turn a dial and like there's a little metal tube and you get like a drizzle of that filled our bath. We had a bath between 46 punks. And I basically had about three baths in the whole six months I lived in this spot. And, and we just, I just looked at the shower that was upstairs. There was an actual shower and I was at a moment of like, I'll just get the shower working, like, come on, how hard can it be to like get a shower working? And I sort of just walked in and I like picked a couple of things up and I just looked at it and then I just started laughing and then this guy came out and just caught me and was like, what are you laughing at? I don't know. I'm laughing at the fact that there's no way

Rebecca:

absolute

Jolie:

I know what I'm doing.

Rebecca:

yeah, exactly,

Jolie:

I'm just being an idiot.

Rebecca:

Well I, I, I've definitely noticed this thing, like, English people, we're natural clowns, right? We, we are a clowny people, we every have to make a joke out of everything, and like you say, usually it's because we, we don't want to be direct, or we're feeling awkward, You know, we can't be vulnerable in lots of ways, you know, there's like, I can't say, I love you, or you, you piss me off. We can't do that.

Jolie:

Mm,

Rebecca:

like,

Jolie:

no.

Rebecca:

aggressive or make a joke about things. And we are jolly. I think, I think there, you know, there's some people might say that there's a level of inauthenticity with this sort of joking, but it is really cultural. Like I, I, we are clowns. We're awkward people trying to be polite and, but we are jolly. I think I do miss that about, I go back to London now and I think, God, it's so friendly here.

Jolie:

What? Wow.

Rebecca:

I know. I know. But it, you know, not that there's not friendly people. I think Berlin is very specific as well from the rest of Germany. I mean, you know, where did you live, by the way, in your squat? you remember in

Jolie:

I lived there a few times. It was about a decade of toing and throwing from Germany kind of before, even before and during, and after. Act. So I lived there in 2002. 2002 was the first time I lived there. I went there visiting, I think, 1990 or 16. Oh God, I'm really bad at maths. Anyway, I turned 21 at the millennium. So it was like before that 1997 or something like that. And And then I moved there and, well, I went there and stayed there for a whole summer probably around 2000. And then 2002 I moved there, because I moved to Brighton first of all, then I went and lived in this squat and it was in Friedrichshain. And, Yeah, but that was like, it was all squats then. That was all squats. But that had been pushed out from MITA. So when I'd gone there in 1997 and even, no, in 2000 when we went there for the summer, I was staying somewhere just around the corner from where I'd been in, I think it was maybe 98 actually, because I don't think there was that much of a gap. I was there for like probably a couple of weeks before I realized that I was literally staying on the same block as where I'd been before because it had changed so much because it had all been squats and it had all been covered in bullet holes and it had all been covered in graffiti and then already by 2002 it had been pushed out to Friedrichshain and yeah, basically everything past Alexander. Platt's kind of was all squats and then now, like, it's pushed out even further, like, yeah, you're right on the outskirts now of any kind of

Rebecca:

recognize it anymore.

Jolie:

No. No.

Rebecca:

even in the time I've been there, it is a rapidly like, I suppose that's the way of it, isn't it? Like just speeds up, you know, I would say this. So Spots left and you know, it's become a tech haven and there's lots of digital nomadism. Really like, like the rents are crazy, you know, like it's really shifting into more of

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

territory. So it's a bit of a shame for Berlin because it was always this place, this place where you could afford stuff, you know, that a

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

capital city that wasn't like the other capital cities, you know, so

Jolie:

Yeah,

Rebecca:

for Berlin and I

Jolie:

screwed themselves over because I feel like they ripped the heart out of the city So although London is London II it still has all the other things woven into it It's all in there. Whereas when I last was in Berlin, we were I was at a wedding a while ago now, it's probably about 10 years ago now, but it was ages, it feels quite recent compared to other stuff. But yeah, I was back for a wedding and we I went, I took, I took some mushrooms and I went walking around Mitter and I cried my eyes out and it was because it wasn't just Not how it was before, it felt like a airport, it was so soulless, there was nothing there, it was just big TGI Friday type restaurants, and that was it, literally that was it, it was like this could be an airport. There is nothing here of any cultural interest whatsoever. And I remembered what it was before, and that's what made me cry. I was like, Oh, this is where the dead chicken gallery used to be. And that was incredible. And then, you know, the pyrotechnics and the robotics and the welding artists, and there, there was an artist that used to be in tacklers, which was in was. Yeah, it was Mitterwald. It was Reinenberger Strasse. And they had yeah, a big old Jewish department store with about a hundred odds, a couple hundred artists based in there. And it was so amazing. And that managed to last till quite recently. So that was, I mean, again, I say probably 10 years ago, but it lasted till then. And When that closed, that just felt like the heart was really, that was the end of it. But there was an artist upstairs in there, in the attic, and he had these giant canvases that were too big to get down the stairs. So sadly, I don't know. I mean, I guess, oh no, he wouldn't have been able to roll them up because what he did was there was this incredible, like, Image of like sort of St. George on a horse. So it was like a night on a horse in this sort of spiral kind of shape. And then it was actually like really detailed, pixelated, almost picture of lots of little things like castles and dragons and people, but then he just kept on doing it, so it was now like three or four inches thick and every time you went there, that picture was still there, but it would be different because he just kept adding these little things to it. And so it was still the same image that you step back and you could see like an impressionist painting kind of thing, but the

Rebecca:

detail.

Jolie:

kept, yeah, he just kept changing them and then just would go over the top of them and layer it and layer it and layer it. It was so cool. It was so cool. And he was such a dude. I used to sit and chat with him for ages. And yeah, just like you say, so experimental and people doing amazing things, but yeah, there was the space for it to happen.

Rebecca:

yeah, people, yeah, exactly. There was a, there's a space, there was, people didn't have to worry about just surviving, you know, like that artists can thrive in that when they don't have to work every hour of the day just to survive.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

you know? Yeah. And yeah, I think, I think we'll see how it goes for the next years with Berlin. Cause really it's about real, real estate, know,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

really lucrative. And, and, People don't care then about culture, you know, the clubs are a big thing in Berlin and like, loads of them have shut down like in the last months because they can't afford rent anymore and landlords just don't care, you know, like this is the, the tale of the world.

Jolie:

But it's like, where's it going to end? I mean, the only way it can end is with everyone no longer living in the cities and then it grinds to a halt. It's just like, you can't, if no one's living here, no one's coming in to do your cleaning and your cooking and stuff. Or like, no one's changing the bins. Like, who's, who's meant to be doing that? We have it here on the island, you know, it's a microcosm of these things. It's that if you've just got posh people buying everything up and it's just posh people living here, who's gonna open the pub for you. He's gonna, you know,

Rebecca:

yeah,

Jolie:

lecture Cesspit. Like, it's,

Rebecca:

the, the, the goods to the groceries,

Jolie:

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Rebecca:

know?

Jolie:

yeah, exactly.

Rebecca:

but this

Jolie:

Yeah,

Rebecca:

the people just have to to work every hour of the day. Like I think that this is it. People don't. They're living in terrible conditions and they're working every hour of the day to survive. They're just

Jolie:

yeah.

Rebecca:

It's yeah. But like you say, Surely this can't continue for much longer. Like when, when is

Jolie:

It won't.

Rebecca:

point? Because, because even people I know, I mean, I'm fairly privileged, you know, but I'm not I'm, I'm on the breadline all the time, but I'm used to, I think also this is where maybe artists, artists can really, like, we really know how to deal with not having very much and doing a lot with it. I don't know. Sometimes I feel like, okay, I'm to being frugal. But people I know who are pretty well off are also, straddling. God knows

Jolie:

Yeah,

Rebecca:

single parent family with, low income, God knows what, how. they're surviving and I think, yeah. When does it, when do, when does it stop? When does it reach? Well, I think, I think we're gonna find out soon anyway.

Jolie:

I think you're gonna find out.

Rebecca:

thought it was gonna be the pandemic, you know, those first few months I was in Berlin and, and it was, it was strange time, but in, there was lots of, it was also magical in lots of ways.

Jolie:

hmm. Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

of people suffered. But it was that for me, I was like, God, this could like this pause in the world where everyone sort of looks around and goes, what are we doing? You know,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

what's

Jolie:

yeah.

Rebecca:

here

Jolie:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca:

don't need to work, I thought that was a real opportunity for us for, for there maybe to be a shift and for things

Jolie:

Yeah, But I think there has been I think that people have really struggled with pushing themselves back to the speed that they were at before So I think most people are like I'm shattered And I'm, I can't do what I did before. I think probably the majority of people are working slower than they were with no intention of going back to the speed they were. And I think like, I feel like people know now. That the game's probably not going to be around for much longer. So all of the focus and energy that people might have had of I need to try and climb this edifice and be part of the game, and I want to take this thing on and be part of this thing, are a bit like, hmm. I also would quite like to spend some time with my family. I'd quite like to,

Rebecca:

the world ends, I'd like

Jolie:

Yeah, before the world ends! Yeah, it'd be quite nice to just chill.

Rebecca:

yeah.

Jolie:

I think, yeah, people saw behind the curtain. I think we've, we have shifted. And

Rebecca:

totally, totally.

Jolie:

once it's out of the bag, you can't put it back in again. Like, people did connect with nature. They did slow down. They did stop. And I think there is a, there is hope. I think there's a lot of hope. And, and people, I don't think people believe that. You know, the nonsense that's going on in the world. A lot more. You know, I think. Yeah.

Rebecca:

Is going on like, like, I

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

much more blatant now. I

Jolie:

Mm.

Rebecca:

I think that the system and the powers know it's crunch time and

Jolie:

Mm.

Rebecca:

it as much as they can, because, and that's why it's also so blatant now,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

it swooping in capitalism, these billionaires, don't care anymore. the fascists are on the street,

Jolie:

Mm.

Rebecca:

it's really making this, I think it's in the final. Death, death. And people are really going, I've had enough. You know,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

isn't how we should be living. But yeah. But I think still, I don't know. It's hard, you know, it,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

it's hard to know what, how to, to shift because these, these systems in us, right?

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

Why? And we can talk about this because you will, you know about this as well, like the power of imagination

Jolie:

Mm hmm. Mm

Rebecca:

as a, as a species really to exercise that muscle because there are other ways we can exist in, in a large way that doesn't have to be this way.

Jolie:

Exactly. They, they, they know that it's about taking our attention. So if, if people are lost in TikTok land and are spending all their time giving that attention, then it means that they're not paying attention. Learning an instrument or thinking about how to do things differently. They're just scrolling, scroll, scroll, scroll. And it means that people got really short attention span and they're not doing things like learning instruments. And it's, it's profitable for them. It's useful for them because it's clickbait, it's advertising. It's all of these things. People are switching off from it, but it's really important that exactly what you're saying. We need to imagine what the future is going to be like. And train that muscle because we've literally been badly training it the other way. You know, we've like, we've been doing the bad thing for ages. We need to sort of start exercising the muscle.

Rebecca:

We've also just been told to be serious for so long. This is my

Jolie:

Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

think, always think I'm like you, but a few years behind, I don't know, discoveries with these discoveries, but like yeah, we've been told this is also it, the things that aren't valued, being serious is valued, right? So

Jolie:

Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

all these things that help cultivate imagination, play sort of making loving spaces. Being silly, I've

Jolie:

Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

about being silly at the moment, because it's so politically powerful, this

Jolie:

Mm.

Rebecca:

is about, it's where do we, where do we, we've got to the nonsense because that's where we're going to find the answer.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

to be in this serious, rigid structure that we, is in us. We have to break it. And the only way

Jolie:

Mm.

Rebecca:

out of that is to go somewhere really expansive and magical and

Jolie:

Mm.

Rebecca:

no sense, you know, because the future, we've imagined what it could be, it probably doesn't make any sense right now, know,

Jolie:

No.

Rebecca:

so, so,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

all of these things we've been told, yeah, we've, we've been trained into this condition into this, like low attention span, we're told to be an adult, you have to be very serious do serious things,

Jolie:

the most powerful subversive thing I always think in common culture is when in Monty Python life of Brian, where they all laugh at Julius Caesar's speech impediment and they're all just there laughing and laughing. And I'm like, if, if Trump talks and everyone just laughs and everyone just laughs their heads off at him, that's the most powerful thing you could possibly do.

Rebecca:

yeah totally. it's almost like when you make a joke, it just sort of cuts. That's what's happening with a bit of huh, you know,

Jolie:

Yeah,

Rebecca:

switches the, switches the attention or switches something and breaks it up and kills its power. I also think everybody is, nourished every day by the arts, whether it's watching a TV show, listening to a podcast, listening to music, it's super important, but power has devalued it to the point where, I don't know how many times. You've had to explain that what you do is a proper job or isn't something that anyone can, just anyone can do like as a hobby. I mean, people can, everyone can, but this sort of like, it's not a real thing. It's not a real thing. is bottom of the priority and classrooms. fun for funding because it's so powerful. Like this is why I think anything that is made to feel undervalued or frivolous or meaningless the system we live in, I think is because it's too powerful,

Jolie:

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca:

Stories so powerful.

Jolie:

Silence.

Rebecca:

this is, I honestly think that more than ever, the arts is, has got more, more power than ever,

Jolie:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, art needs an edge for a start and we haven't really had that strong an edge for ages. this is actual edgy. This is the edgiest edge that we've had in our lifetime and it's like, okay, this is exciting. I've got something to work with now. What's, what's, what are you up to in Columbia? Tell me about that.

Rebecca:

I'm on a residency here, resident artist at this institute called Casa de Mono. I'm a resident artist for the month and I'm, I'm researching a project basically along these lines. I it's something that I've been wanting to do for ages. I, I did, you know, I did my solo show, Frida Loves You. lot of that, what I was doing there, I was doing alongside my MA in art and

Jolie:

hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca:

time Trump was elected something. And I was like, I want to make more of a difference to the world. Work. it's just kind of fun and silly. And it's about sharing the love and. Making audiences feel great. That's what I do And she's but that is something and I was all right, and basically did a lot of research. This is the really boring political theory part of the podcast but in in affect theory, which is Just about so the way politics works days and way a lot of things are working isn't about giving truth giving facts.

Jolie:

Huh.

Rebecca:

so that's how people are making these huge decisions. It's they've been given a feeling and feelings are really hard to take back, you know really, you can't just say oh no sorry I was wrong about that and take it

Jolie:

Yeah. yeah.

Rebecca:

and love and hope, In a, in a huge way, like boo. And amongst, amongst other things, cause I wouldn't say that the arts is the only thing that. can do that. the arts, that's what we do, you know, like that's what we do. especially when it comes to live theatre or live events. This is really important, being physically together and experiencing and feeling something. And, and I also based, so this is what my thesis was about, and I based it on clowning as well.

Jolie:

Yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm

Rebecca:

in, we're doing it together. And when you're playing, and when it's with humor, and love, and we make these atmospheres together, and people are allowed to be who they are. And just feel at the same time as other people feeling it's really powerful. So That i've experienced that on stage as i'm sure you have In what you've done in a in like a micro way

Jolie:

hmm.

Rebecca:

part of I think my mission now on on the planet is to push that I don't know if it's possible, but how can we? with as artists as clouds as artists these spaces of safety and joy and belonging amplify or at least offer a place of rest. You know, often I think it's all well and good work that tells people how bad the world is. All that stuff is

Jolie:

I don't think they need telling

Rebecca:

Like this is my struggle. This is bad. I think that's, that's important. we need the pre resistance work before you can get out on the street and march and feel empowered and be like, yeah, I am going to tear the system down. I am going to stand up and fight for my neighbor who's being oppressed. You've got to, you've got to be feel safe and empowered and. unified and I think this is also it so even on in a micro way it's almost like a healing Creating also hope healing spaces spaces of where people can rest and feel hopeful and together And they're not alone. is also important alongside the yeah get on the streets and march Yeah,

Jolie:

it up.

Rebecca:

why I'm here at

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

story short I'm experimenting with that here. I, think it's interesting place to be Columbia famously is. I have one of the happiest, happiest peoples, I've had two people say to me two Colombians, not being provoked, just in a normal conversation saying being happy is really important to us, whatever's going on, badly, you make the best of it. You make,

Jolie:

Mm,

Rebecca:

happy. That's very interesting considering as well, the struggles that have been faced here, you know,

Jolie:

yeah,

Rebecca:

that long ago.

Jolie:

no. Mm, yeah, yeah,

Rebecca:

experiment. I mean, I, I am also petrified because I'm like, I think it's a big, I've got a lot to deliver, maybe. And maybe it's not possible, maybe it's okay to just, it, to just be doing, constantly doing little shows that give people a nugget of joy. Joy is the word.

Jolie:

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Rebecca:

that can be revolutionary and radical, and that can radicalize, with that. I've got to make a sharing at the end of March.

Jolie:

Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

interviewing. I'm starting interviews tomorrow. I'm just chatting to people about experience of joy. Like what they, where they think despair is getting them to talk about silliness. Also, because this is important as you know, like this. Allowing yourself to play and imagine and find magic, you know, magic is also a big, big, important thing. people like to, again, you know, back to my point undervaluing things that are super powerful. alternative, like, astrology or alternative esoteric things always

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

of, you know?

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

they hold something deeply, also deeply powerful. And I think this idea of magic that is poo pooed as like, woo woo, you know,

Jolie:

You're saying the sacred to me.

Rebecca:

They're sacred!

Jolie:

Yeah,

Rebecca:

like

Jolie:

like, you know, that woo woo sacred thing.

Rebecca:

You know that woo woo stuff, and I'm like hello, have you seen a plant? It's, everything is woo woo,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

printer, come on, like, there's, everything, as if the whole, the cosmos isn't, some miracle, come

Jolie:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca:

this, this,

Jolie:

Have a bit of awe.

Rebecca:

Yeah, this connection to wonder, you

Jolie:

Yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca:

things are magic and I am magic and

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

is also something that also think people are turning to more and more. Actually, I've seen it becoming much more mainstream.

Jolie:

I want to pull a card because there'll be other things that we will talk about that will come out from the universe choosing what we talk about.

Rebecca:

Speaking of woo woo.

Jolie:

Yes, speaking of woowoo, let the universe us.

Rebecca:

I love

Jolie:

Yeah, absolutely. So you tell me when to stop.

Rebecca:

Okay. Is that?

Jolie:

Oh, she's a sexy lady. got the princess of wands,

Rebecca:

Princess

Jolie:

and she's whirling through space with a tiger in tow, and she's just living her best life, full of fire, full of passion. What does that feel like to you? Does that feel, is are you feeling powerful and fiery and free at the moment? There's a real freedom in that.

Rebecca:

I, I am. I think it's, it's really speaking to, you know, Yeah, like this very sort of, artists taking the, taking the baton and like leading everyone into the, into the

Jolie:

Into something. Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca:

you

Jolie:

Into something.

Rebecca:

know, it could be, we don't know what's going to happen. It could be the, the birding pits of hell, who knows,

Jolie:

Yeah. But it'd be fun to find out.

Rebecca:

The princess of wands, it's a very creative, right? The

Jolie:

Yeah, totally.

Rebecca:

energy, desperately needed. I feel very much this energy at the moment.

Jolie:

How did you get the residential does it feel like a real like prestigious thing that you've ended up doing this residential in Columbia? Because that seems pretty cool. Quite random.

Rebecca:

totally, totally, you know, one of those things that wasn't expected. was really an unfolding of the universe's black thing I mean i've just stepped out of the autumn for me was really low

Jolie:

Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

I've had it's come out of a a year or two of feeling Totally like I don't know who I am. I don't know what doing lost and not inspired. Feeling very what's the word? Disillusioned about being an artist and

Jolie:

Mm hmm. Okay. Huh. Huh.

Rebecca:

there also. Sometimes I feel like it's not very me. And I was like, I need to get out. I need to, I need to have a cut from this period of stagnation and being goo.

Jolie:

Okay. Okay.

Rebecca:

And I need to go somewhere where, I mean, I love this part of the world anyway. I love a bit more this. of chaos to just go somewhere totally new and be like, ah, okay, actually,

Jolie:

Silence. Silence.

Rebecca:

and I just Researched what was going on in the arts here and this residency came up And I,

Jolie:

Wow.

Rebecca:

I applied and you know how it is with applying for anything with the arts, you're, you're, you're waiting for the no,

Jolie:

Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca:

oh, well probably won't happen.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

it takes ages and you never hear, but The universe was like this is

Jolie:

Wow.

Rebecca:

columbia for some reason because within a few days They were like we really love your application We want you to be here and as an artist when you get talking nose all the time so much rejection you're always made to feel, yeah, that you're not welcome, you know, ever get a yes, you know,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

it felt so, it felt so and then, and so I spent a couple of weeks in the mountains on a farm, and then I

Jolie:

Brilliant. Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

Which, I'm not a process person. I don't know about you. I think maybe you are more. I like to have, I usually have an end point already in my head. That I Like if I'm making a show, I already kind of know the end point and I work towards it and I don't like that bit in between where I don't.

Jolie:

well you should start making that into play. That's a bit where you should start playing more.

Rebecca:

I think you're right about this. I don't know. You ever had like, there's this real, I, oh my God, sorry. many thoughts. I'm not enough, Matt.

Jolie:

Too many thoughts in mouth. I want that on a t shirt.

Rebecca:

I have this, I don't know. I mean, I used to work in a theater and I had to have hours in my own brain, like sat at the back of an auditorium. But I'd have, always have these like, I don't know if this is a bit off topic, and I, I, I have, like, apocalypse, I want, I don't want to say fantasies all the time, but I think about it a lot, When I, especially like when I'm having a hard time because there's something about that space where you just have to be in a way, it's like, if when the end of the world

Jolie:

Yeah,

Rebecca:

Why is that? Why does that feel easier to me than living every day in this system?

Jolie:

yeah,

Rebecca:

Because

Jolie:

yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca:

of just making action and being in the moment, which is also maybe relieving and sort of this like, Oh God, I've got to make my goals, you know, in five years time, but, or maybe it is this, this anxiety that we feel as people a lot. Finally something you can face and fight, I don't know. I don't know what it is, but it's

Jolie:

Yeah. Tightly.

Rebecca:

saying there is an element of like, yeah, maybe, maybe this anarchic part of myself is like, it has to get to that point where we, where

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

literally collapses. Like I can't,

Jolie:

Yeah. Let's

Rebecca:

And that's when we

Jolie:

go feral. Yeah.

Rebecca:

will really sort of, maybe that's when the imaginations will spring into action or that people will discover their capabilities, you know, in other ways, outside of this rigid system. I don't know. Yeah.

Jolie:

What's it called? Station Eleven. Have you read Station Eleven? There's a TV series of it as well.

Rebecca:

have.

Jolie:

Yeah, I love that. That's my favorite apocalypse book. It's so good. The Museum of Civilization.

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Jolie:

Yeah. It's just so cool. Yeah, and then they're traveling players and it's just brilliant. It's like, that's, that's, that's what I'll be doing.

Rebecca:

Great.

Jolie:

I'm going to be a traveling player

Rebecca:

Exactly.

Jolie:

a car.

Rebecca:

Yeah. And they've got all

Jolie:

That's exactly what I'll be doing.

Rebecca:

there's like one, one musician or like one old guitar. I can't remember, but it's

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

they're not

Jolie:

And they're doing Shakespeare. Yeah.

Rebecca:

reread that book. It was really good.

Jolie:

That's really good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca:

there's something about this returning to simplicity as well, because as much as, yeah, like the world has got very complicated And there is an element of maybe, yeah. We don't want to go back to when, you know, we're really back to caveman times. And, you know, like you said, it wasn't great, but there

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

is a way we can make things a bit more simpler for ourselves.

Jolie:

And it will be an amalgamation of all the things. Like it doesn't mean that we're not going to take the knowledge and technology and stuff that we've got sort of steampunk, you know, it's probably going to be a, a bit of a mishmash of things, but we just reuse things a bit more and it's not all just consume, consume, new, new, but there's a bit more of like, Oh, reuse that thing, which they do in other parts of the world where know, everything fresh and new. Right. Do you want to put another card?

If you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting me for the work that I do. I put this work out for free along with my video blogs and the moon ceremonies that I do every two weeks and the articles that I write for the go and see press. So for people to just enjoy for free. by supporting me on Patreon, it's like you're being a patron of the arts and you're supporting me as an artist to create work. I appreciate this way of, receiving support because those who can are able to do it and those who can't still get the same things for free and everyone gets to enjoy the work. And it just feels like a nice way of creating as an artist. And I really enjoy it. I like being accessible. I like things to be as accessible as possible. but I also need to make a living and I need to pay my rent. And this is one of the ways that I've found to be able to do that. if you want to support me, you can go over to my Patreon, which is patreon.com/joly rose. And for the bottom tier, it's three pounds a month, It's like you buying me a drink to say thank you for the podcast. for a little bit extra, I think it's seven or eight pound, You get the videos of the podcast as well and a few extra features. So if you are able to afford that, that would be amazing. Do what you can and I really appreciate it. huge thanks to all of my supporters and Patreons, who make this all possible. So thank you to you and got some things coming up. There's the Beltone Festival. on the 3rd of May, tickets are on sale and it's gonna be glorious. All the blue bells will be out and the three cornered leak that have these little white flowers that look like snowdrops and the whole island smells of onions and blue bells, which is much nicer, and it's just such a. Glorious time of year to be on the island. there's quite a lot of people coming from the uk, which I'm excited about. I love sharing this beautiful land with people at that time of year, the blossom's just starting to come out. I can see out my window. The fruit trees are beginning to blossom and everything's coming to life. So it's gonna be at full heightened, just so gorgeous and sexy, and. Everything that spring is all that magic will be coming into full bloom, ready for Beltane on the 3rd of May. So do come along if you're able to. if you are local and live in the Tunnel Islands, I'll be in Guernsey on the last Thursday in. March on the 27th at the Kki Club, which possibly is sold out, but there might be a ticket or two left if you're lucky. there's always a secret guest, and the guest this month is really cool. They're always amazing. But yeah, this one's particularly cool and I'm looking forward to talking to them. And we have surprise chefs and it's always in a different location, so it is all a secret. And it was started by Joanie because she, Fully embraced the not drinking world and wanted to create spaces and environments where people could meet and connect and start conversations without having to be drunk and so she's created this space where it doesn't matter who the guest is or what the theme is, it's not about whether it is something of interest. although everyone is interesting and that's what's so wonderful about it, Conversations begin and so someone talks for, and I interview them and we find out about what they do, and they could be an artist a scientist, a museum, curator, whatever it is. There's always something interesting. That they have to share. this sparks conversation and it's this beautiful, warm environment we then all share food together. I love it. It's literally one of my favorite things in the world, so honored and privileged to be part of it. I love interviewing people and that's why I do this podcast. the last offering that is coming up is the, which fall are you course, which, starts at the end of May. this is online, so anyone can take part I'm so excited about this year. every year. It's amazing. it's almost hard to put into words what I've got from working with my archetype and learning about my archetypes, but it's an ongoing relationship and dive into my inner world and understanding it knowing who I am if life were a play, what my part is in it, and. the permission. Permission is always the word, the permissions that I'm able to give myself, knowing what part I'm meant to be playing and the lineage that I'm part of. this year I'm gonna play around with rewriting an archetypal story, which feels like mega work and not something to take lightly, but I'm going to do it. And I have mentioned it in previous podcasts, the idea of, Rewriting a love story between Venus and Mercury, and Venus is my archetype. So yeah, I'm gonna do that. That's gonna be my work for this cycle. whoever comes and joins the process, Normally it's doing it for the first time and therefore it's more about you finding your archetype. But if you've done this work before and you are hearing this and you're like, oh, that's interesting, if you wanted to come and do it again, we can talk about how much that costs and what we do. that could be negotiated because I am interested in diving deeper into these things. And yeah, this feels like it's gonna be really massive. writing a story for the gods. we need to make sure that, this is done respectfully But I feel like they're asking me to do it. it's the next step in the evolution of this story. So that's what I'm gonna do. if you would like to join me on this journey, get in touch. Just send me an email. My email address will be in the notes and we'll talk about, The nuts and bolts of how it all works. come with me on this deep dive into the inner world and now on with the show.

Jolie:

So we've got Oh my gad, change!

Rebecca:

Oh, change. What card is that? Oh, change. Just

Jolie:

So this,

Rebecca:

That's

Jolie:

of Disks and this is actually one of my favourite cards. absolutely love this card. So it's got the infinity symbol with the snake swallowing its tail. And then it's got the yin yangs in the middle. Yeah. So this is about being able to relax with change and just go with the flow. We've changed. that's the reason why I started this podcast was it about being able to be at peace with the nonsense and the chaos. So it's like, how can we because that's the only resilience I feel that we can really work on now and it doesn't hurt to work on it. Because even if It doesn't all go to absolute ruin. Being able to relax with the unknown is a way of being able to relax with death and, you know, losing our loved ones, which we're all going to have to face. My friend had a t shirt the other day at a gig. It said, spoiler alert, we all die. I like that. And that, yeah, like just how to relax with the unknown, which is death is the ultimate unknown, but that. Is what we need moving forwards in the world as well to be able to just go, okay, we might all go feral, or we might be doing this, we might be doing that, or it might become some fascist regime, whatever it is that's happening, how can we be at peace or relaxed with the unknown and embrace change? So yeah, what does that feel like to you?

Rebecca:

I mean, that's a, it's a beautiful card. Really powerful to me. Like I change it's about like, I think we are so used to trying to be in control, aren't we? And I, I think I'm a pretty good, I think I, I feel like. Quite chaotic person. And my life has been quite chaotic. I mean, it is, I go against the grain for most of my life and, and I feel that has equipped me. To be able to face change, but then also at the same time,

Jolie:

like it. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Rebecca:

I have to have, I know, what the goal is. The process is hard for me. Even though I'm quite chaotic yeah, this being able to really, really be so in tune and that's it. What letting go is to really just go and be so open to what is, is being asked of you from the universe or what is being shown to you, all the possibilities I guess that's it. Like, how do we really train that as well? think. told all the time.

Jolie:

Yeah, totally. Like that's my process. So when you talked about process before, so with the pilgrimages especially that it works and shows itself in that way. And this is also how I do geomancy and work with nature is it's letting the outer world be a sign language for the inner world. So taking everything that's happening in the outer world as, as the process. So the people that you're meeting. the weather that's happening, the things that you're seeing, and for that to be influencing or nodding towards what you should be doing. And then that lets the universe lead. And that's why I do the cards rather than having prepared questions,

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Jolie:

because it lets the universe lead and chooses what we are exploring. And with the pilgrimage, when we created a performance that we took to COP26, we didn't know what we were going to do. I didn't have an end result in mind, and we walked and we were doing ceremonies along the way, which we had agreed that we were going to do, because we sort of thought of, it's the, we walked up the spine of Albion ley line and we worked out where the chakra points were, and so we did a ceremony at each chakra point, sort of doing a healing Massage on the earth. We ended up, when we got to COP, we came up with this performance that was nodding to the four elements and our experiences of encountering the four elements on the pilgrimage, which is what people wanted to know. They wanted to know pilgrimage was like. So using fooling, we had someone walking through mud and everyone jumped down on the floor and became the mud and was hanging onto the person's foot while they were trying to walk along.

Rebecca:

Brilliant,

Jolie:

and we knew that we were being ceremonial and We started fooling with it and it was really fun. Do you know about the book, The Death and Resurrection Show? From Shaman to Superstar.

Rebecca:

Yes,

Jolie:

It's a book

Rebecca:

do! I'm

Jolie:

You do? Yeah, you do know it? Yeah. Yeah, I do know that book.

Rebecca:

was, it was a big part of my thesis, actually. I discovered

Jolie:

I bet.

Rebecca:

Library of

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

and I was like,

Jolie:

Yes.

Rebecca:

is incredible.

Jolie:

yeah, yeah, it's amazing.

Rebecca:

copy? Because

Jolie:

Yes, I've got a copy. Yes. Yes.

Rebecca:

it's,

Jolie:

got it for like

Rebecca:

it's

Jolie:

30 quid. It's because it had a different tagline. It had instead of well, this is, I'll tell you this off air. There's a way of getting it where it's not 500 quid.

Rebecca:

It's, it's a bit,

Jolie:

Yeah,

Rebecca:

book. It's really a work

Jolie:

it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. Well, for the listeners, it's a book. It was a guy's thesis. He actually mainly now writes about football. His name's Rogan Taylor. He's amazing. I've actually met him a few times because he came and did stuff with Jonathan Kay in Liverpool. He's a scouser, obviously. And he just observed his thesis was on how the shaman And the showmen are the same thing that the origins of all show business and all, all of the arts originated from people fearing death. And so basically once we became conscious, we started to fear death, like animals fear death, but they don't sit around worrying about it. They don't have existential angst. Once we became conscious, we got existential angst. And then when people nearly died and survived, everyone was like, Well, how did you do that? what just happened? And you can't explain that. There wasn't also very many words around at the time. It was pre Shakespeare making up 10, 000 words or whatever it was that you made up. So there wasn't really the language to describe it anyway. So they would perform it and it would be painting or music or song. And then people enjoyed the show and the better the show was and the more crazy the show was and the more breaking physics, the show. So you think of like loony tunes where they run off the cliff and they don't notice. The gravity until they notice it and then it affects them or

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Jolie:

kind of vibes, you know, like swapping gender, walking on the ceiling, yeah, all slapstick, but also defying physics, you know, there was this whole, you've defied death

Rebecca:

of

Jolie:

by the rules of physics generally.

Rebecca:

it?

Jolie:

magic and they were all a performance. And then people started to feel that was healing in itself.

Rebecca:

going

Jolie:

that's trickled down today where. People go to Taylor Swift concert and feel healed by the fact that she touched their hand or, you know, and people are all the time going, Oh, you know, I touched, they touched me and now I'm no longer exactly. I'm no longer depressed or all these things. And that,

Rebecca:

through, yeah, Yeah, yeah.

Jolie:

yeah. And that you can see it in, in the arts in every way, like the aerial performers and then the clown was the kind of earthy character and

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Jolie:

yeah, you have, you have all of the, and there was a sacred. Yeah. Like it is a temple and it's a, it is a beautiful temple. And I, yeah, it's just such a, it's such a wonderful thing. I did an ayahuasca ceremony with a Colombian shaman. That's why I really want to go to Columbia. I've got a real desire to go to Columbia. The first ceremony I did with him in my early twenties and he couldn't speak English and it was mind blowing. I mean, it completely, I was ill. He did it as a healing thing and it worked. And, and as he was doing it, I was like, this is a performance. And cause I'd already done enough theater work myself at that. I was about like 21 or something that I went with it and I totally went with what was happening. But I also a little critical bit of me was going, Oh, interesting. This is a performance thing that he's doing. I see what you're doing. Like I could kind of, I could see the nuts and bolts. Yeah, totally. I was like, Oh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very nice. Very well done. I see what you did. That was really good. Yeah, but I went with it and my imagination went with it and I, and I got healed and it worked. It, it made me better. And years later he invited me to a ceremony like 14 years later. He just randomly invited me to come to a ceremony. He was over in Holland and I got there and someone had built him a red and yellow big top 10 this, and it was huge. It was the size of an actual big top 10.

Rebecca:

Fantastic.

Jolie:

And then, and it turned into a temple of creativity with music and singing and drumming and it was so, so incredible. And I was like, this is my church. a giant circus tent drinking magic medicine plant drinking and mayhem. It was like, yes.

Rebecca:

the plants

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

and like

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

your mind, you know, in this view. Yeah. This absurd,

Jolie:

It was so good.

Rebecca:

almost absurd, but actually not, you know, actually

Jolie:

totally.

Rebecca:

this is actually maybe where we've, we we've, healing, this space is the most healing actually this kind of like, you know, expansive. I can, there are so many possibilities here. Of course I can heal

Jolie:

And you're doing the healing yourself as well. I think that's part of it is that they're facilitating the space and they're holding the space and they're looking after you. So they're kind of caretaking for you, but you're doing the work, like you drink the drink and you untangle what needs untangling within yourself. And if you get a bit too, over, overwrought by what's happening, then someone will come in and, you know, with, with some incense over you or kind of like chill you out a little bit,

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Jolie:

like just bring you back into the room a bit, but, and make sure you don't hurt yourself and things like that. But you do the work and that's, what's so great about it is, whereas I think with, when religion became more organized and prescribed, there's someone else telling you that I'm the voice of God and this is, this is how it's done.

Rebecca:

Yeah,

Jolie:

this other way is much more like, you're the one who does the work, you're the one that connects to the infinite, you are part of the infinite, you're an aspect of God, and you, you know,

Rebecca:

yeah, you're

Jolie:

sort your stuff out.

Rebecca:

this great thing, you, it's not this higher power that rules you, you're part of it, you have

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

you have agency, I guess, like, yeah,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

don't need someone to tell you how to heal, you need, you need community and people to support you in your own healing, but you're,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

what to do. And,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

there is no one way to do it, there's no one way to be spiritual, it's your own way, you know, and I think, yeah, totally, yeah, this has become, I don't know, people want to have guidance and they want to have gurus, maybe, but then it

Jolie:

Mm hmm.

Rebecca:

get into this zone of, you know, you know, there's lots of stories about People

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

becoming, wanting to feel magical and be this magical guru person and in a way it's kind of irresponsible, think. Exactly.

Jolie:

That's what I've always loved about Jonathan Kaye, because he could be a guru easily, but because he makes it about theater and that's how I've always felt about stuff as well. It's like, it's theater. The whole thing's a piece of theater and you know, so make it good, write the script to make it good. Be as ridiculous as you want. You can do whatever you like, but it is just a play. don't buy into. The role that you've created for yourself. Yeah.

Rebecca:

don't take it, don't take it too seriously. It's all, all of this is nonsense at the end of the day.

Jolie:

Yeah, it is. Our thing is,

Rebecca:

yeah, yeah. the world's ending, but, you know, it's all, yeah, there is, there's something really nice about that. It's like, you can't, can't put yourself in that serious, that too serious space.

Jolie:

I got to pull another card. interesting. This is funny. This is the chariot, the chariot, which is.

Rebecca:

okay.

Jolie:

A dude in, dressed up in gold, really looks like he's got all the kit and everything. But he's, the horses that are pulling him are actually statues. So he's not actually going anywhere. And, the reason why I was like, oh, that's interesting, is because Jeanette, who ran our drama school she once called me into the office because she, she'd called me into the office to sort of tell me off for doing too much because I was doing all the Jonathan Kaye stuff and everything whilst doing my course. And I was doing too many things at the same time. And she said I was thinking about you last night and the fact that we were having this meeting and I dreamt of the chariot card. And The chariot's going round the corner, not in this one. The chariot's going round the corner and the wheels are coming off, which is in the Ride Awake. And it's like, not slowing down and enjoying the ride, which is interesting because that's a bit, that's the process. So like enjoying the process, slowing down and enjoying the ride and enjoying the journey and just like not taking on too much and not kind of overwhelming yourself. Yeah. And also having all the kit, but nowhere to go, it's that feeling of feeling like you're not getting anywhere. And I do feel that. we deserve big pats on the back for having gone this far, so like, what, 2007 we finished. That, so, that was, that's mad, isn't it? So what's that? I'm really bad at math. I mean, it's nearly 20 years. It's nearly 20 years

Rebecca:

yeah,

Jolie:

since we finished drama, so it's 20 years since we started drama school.

Rebecca:

it. It's 20

Jolie:

And we've managed to keep, yeah,

Rebecca:

yeah.

Jolie:

we've managed to keep on eking a living all this time. And it's, I feel like we deserve a, I want to like cheers you, cheers, well done. Yeah, pat on the back, cheers and pat on the back.

Rebecca:

I still

Jolie:

Okay. Okay.

Rebecca:

didn't recognize myself. I'm like, who's this timid person with no personality who doesn't. Make anymore. And I had this real, I mean, and only recently I've had this realization about myself that, yeah, it's been 20 years. I've been doing this for nearly 20 years, probably 20 years. Cause I was doing stuff before I went to drama school. It's like, I know stuff, there's something now where I'm like, I finally and I wish I'd got, I wish I had this sooner because the amount I've

Jolie:

Okay.

Rebecca:

on stage, there's probably nothing I've really not done

Jolie:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Rebecca:

growing up ever you're making and and maybe it is there's something very childlike about it because that's what you're allowed to do when you're a child make plays and make dance and And show people and and so there's something about it that keeps you in this state of like childishness, maybe That you forget actually I do know I do know stuff something quite, yeah, like, actually 20 years we,

Jolie:

allowed to be a master now.

Rebecca:

I'm a

Jolie:

You're allowed to be a master. Yeah.

Rebecca:

of performance. And,

Jolie:

Yes, you are.

Rebecca:

and you forget also because time, I don't, I feel a kid most of the time also because I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't have a, I don't have my own kids. So

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

maybe got a little bit of like, still don't feel like a grown up. And yeah, there's something people, young, youngest, the young, they,

Jolie:

Those young people.

Rebecca:

most young people, you forget that you're older now. I also forget

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

like, ah, why is everyone looking at me like I would know? Oh, it's because you're all 20 and I'm the adult! and I do know! And then for ages I was like, no, I like it, but only recently have I gone, actually, yeah, I do know. why am I stressed

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

in.

Jolie:

so this year in numerology is a nine year, and nine is the year of mastery. And the last time we had a nine year was 2016. It was a year when everyone died when Prince died and David Bowie died and

Rebecca:

Bowie, yeah,

Jolie:

all of,

Rebecca:

Rickman,

Jolie:

yeah.

Rebecca:

Loads

Jolie:

Yeah. And, and there was loads of them. There was loads and loads and loads. And the way that I've sort of been thinking about it or hearing about it recently is that the reason why those masters died is they transcended, they were so master of their, they just mastered it. And so they transcended, which also then leaves space in that upper echelon for new people to then step into that space and that we all then step up. And so. What is it this year that you're becoming a master of and what is it that you're stepping up for? And already this year, we've lost Marianne Faithfull, David Lynch and Tom Robbins, who's one of my favorite authors. Yeah. So we've already lost some masters this year. Yeah.

Rebecca:

yeah, why not? Like, I think there's something about maybe it's like that, that the chariot card is also a card of of taking action, you know, really is a powerful card of It's got that sort of drive, hasn't it? And maybe it is that sort of like, you know, I know that that card doesn't, you're not going anywhere, but there is a direction almost like,

Jolie:

Yeah. Well, it's about asking you where you feel like you're not going anywhere and it's the sabotage thing. So it's like, where do you feel stuck? Where do you feel off the rails, out of control? And for me, I don't, when I get that card, it's like,

Rebecca:

Yeah.

Jolie:

It's a, I sort of see it as resistance. So what are you resisting? And that resistance is just get out of the way, let the, let the chariot free. what is it that you're like, what roadblock have you put in front? So for example, thinking that you're. a child still and you're not a master and you're not a grown up and you can still be fun and be a grown up and you know, but also don't grow up, we don't have to grow up. Growing up is failing, like don't, don't worry about doing that. But that you are a master, we've done 20 years of crafting and failing, well done. We should fail. That's what we're meant to do. If you hadn't failed, you wouldn't still be doing this. If you'd just succeeded 20 years ago, you wouldn't be doing this now, you'd be doing something else because you would have got bored and you'd have moved on to something else.

Rebecca:

And I know a lot of people who who got out of not our particular cohort, but you know I know, you know a lot of actors and artists and people who didn't Get famous or get their big break straight away, and they just gave up like two

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

But that was because also you're told that that is also What make you know, like we have a skewed idea of success anyway is in

Jolie:

Yes.

Rebecca:

You

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

and there's only one way of being successful as an artist and that's

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

be, to be famous, I suppose.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

in lots of ways and, you know, this, this, I don't know, it's interesting to like, To, to be still doing it, like there has been a lot of failure, you know,

Jolie:

Mm.

Rebecca:

I am not a famous artist, you know, no one knows who I am and most of my stuff hasn't made a scrap of money. Right? success terms, like I have a living from being an artist. You know, I'm not

Jolie:

But you've managed it for

Rebecca:

I mean, far from.

Jolie:

20 years.

Rebecca:

lasted for 20 years and

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

I know I've also had to. There's a lot with, with this, with this life that we chose this. Work or whatever we want to say that are our calling that comes that people want that people want that comes with a lot of proving, I think, you know, to still be doing it after 20 years and not be

Jolie:

Mm. Mm.

Rebecca:

you know, I think a lot of people don't, who who don't have that calling, or maybe I don't know, don't understand it. And I've struggled with that a lot. Actually recently it's also changed. Maybe it's this new idea of myself as a master of an experienced person. But, but I've

Jolie:

Mm.

Rebecca:

you know, like I've, I've had many times one very recently where I was like, I need to get a proper job now and

Jolie:

Mm.

Rebecca:

and be an adult. I And for a few months last year, I was really trying to do that like sort my linkedin linkedin profile and imagine myself in an office and and I and no No shade to anyone whose life that is but I just can't you know, there's there's this deep I don't know driving me that I can't this is what I'm going to be doing.

Jolie:

And I think as well, after 20 years of training and developing as a thing, basically we can't go and do an office job now, it would be like someone who spent 20 years in an office just suddenly going, Oh, and now step out onto this stage and make a tit of yourself.

Rebecca:

true

Jolie:

It'd be like, no, no way.

Rebecca:

it's actually a really good argument because like Because yeah, like what do they expect from me? Jeez. I think I've had, I think I have friends who often Worry that I you know, they worry about me because they don't understand my life and often it's hard and you're and I think I may, you know, just because it's hard and I, and you struggle doesn't mean, I don't know what I'm trying to say here, but I think there's a, this worry. It's like, I think that's part, I think it's part of it. And like to not worry, like it's also part of this path to have these struggles and then

Jolie:

yeah,

Rebecca:

Like it's not this, but maybe that's hard when you're observing and you're a friend and

Jolie:

yeah,

Rebecca:

get it. have a lot

Jolie:

yeah.

Rebecca:

being like, trying to help me find office jobs. And I'm like, yeah, it is. It's the

Jolie:

This

Rebecca:

isn't it?

Jolie:

is the worst thing you could do for me,

Rebecca:

know exactly. Exactly. What am I going to do there? I'd be terrible. I'd be terrible.

Jolie:

paper airplanes and elastic bands flicking people.

Rebecca:

I'll be, you know what

Jolie:

Should we make a play?

Rebecca:

I'd love to be someone. I don't know if this is a job, but maybe it is. I'd love to be someone who came into the office and just made it a really nice thing.

Jolie:

Should we make a play?

Rebecca:

yeah, hey guys, how is everyone today? what's the matter? What's the matter, Amanda? Are you feeling a bit, what's happened? should we, should we have a dance or something? You know, I think it's like a wellness person, but not

Jolie:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca:

come in and make, make the, make sure everyone's okay and having a

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

That's what I

Jolie:

I think pre recession, pre recession, they would have been well up for that

Rebecca:

I know. I know.

Jolie:

what's your chaos crusade? What's your chaos crusade to help people?

Rebecca:

you To help people. So is it you? So you have to do this or everybody?

Jolie:

Everyone, whoever's listening has got to do it.

Rebecca:

Okay

Jolie:

I mean, they don't have to, but it's a suggestion.

Rebecca:

I, I would like people to, it's, it's going to be dance based. So, I haven't thought this through like well, but I would like you to stop and ask a stranger to teach, to teach you their favorite dance move

Jolie:

Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant.

Rebecca:

of the week. So by the end you have routine. A dance routine, so you put all of the dance moves together. And

Jolie:

Okay. Brilliant.

Rebecca:

you can ask, and then, and then Maybe you can yourself doing it send it in to the podcast and we

Jolie:

I want to see. Yeah. Let me see your dance routine.

Rebecca:

or at the end of the week. So you also, you film yourself like doing the dance routine that you piece together from these strangers that you've met Or you can go you're at the pub or somewhere and you teach the routine to somebody else. a stranger.

Jolie:

Brilliant.

Rebecca:

So that's my thing. And, and

Jolie:

Excellent.

Rebecca:

asking, maybe if you're dancing with someone, you can ask them questions like, why is it your favorite dance move? Try and get a story out of them. Why not?

Jolie:

Yeah. Find out where it's from.

Rebecca:

together. Exactly.

Jolie:

Excellent. Well, I hope you're going to do that too. I want to see your dance routine at the end of the week.

Rebecca:

I love. I know. And I'm in, you know, I'm in the capital of salsa. This is, Cali is like

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

salsa.

Jolie:

Oh my God. You're going to end up with a really cool dance.

Rebecca:

God. It's gonna be embarrassing though, because like everyone here can dance and it's like a religion, you know? So like, yeah. But it, but it's also beautiful'cause it's social dancing, you know, which is not a very, it's not such a in Europe. Used to be, not so much anymore. People, the

Jolie:

Like tea dances and stuff. People used to. Yeah.

Rebecca:

it's very, you know, it's not, everybody here just knows how to salsa. And there's this Like this non sexual intimacy, you know, I think we also need a lot more of. In the world, this touching each other and being bodily, physically together in a way that's not sexual, but is really intimate, you know, it's really special. So maybe like, even with this chaos chaos, Theory, I

Jolie:

Crusade.

Rebecca:

it the crusade? It's the crusade. Even if someone doesn't want to show you their dance move, maybe you can, just dance with them for like a couple of

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

See if you can

Jolie:

Yeah.

Rebecca:

non sexual intimacy with a stranger. It

Jolie:

Brilliant. Love it.

Rebecca:

you know, especially in the UK, I don't know. But it won't be as But

Jolie:

Love it.

Rebecca:

I

Jolie:

That's awesome.

Rebecca:

videos of a dance routine.

Jolie:

Okay. Hear that listeners. All the videos are to be shared if you don't mind, send them to me. Awesome. Thank you so much, my darling. This has been amazing

Rebecca:

Lots

Jolie:

you ever so much. Lots of love and I'll speak to you soon. Take care. Bye. Bye.

that was the wonderful Rebecca. Kenny, I love her. She's such a gorgeous human being and does just ooze joy her show. Was presented in Columbia. She has finished her residency and the performance she created said, listen, I love you. Joy is coming, which is perfect. it was a beautiful presentation, if you go to her Instagram, which I'll share in the notes, you'll see some of the work you can see she's just such a lovely being I'm very happy to have been part of the conversation through her process. we do deserve pats on the back for keeping on going for 20 years. it's an achievement and yes, it's harder now than it's ever been, which is frustrating because as you become a master of something and you have that much experience, you would, in many professions, be earning more money. You would be, I don't know. I, I assume that with 20 years experience in graphic design or carpentry or things like this, you would be earning so much more money. Whereas in theater or the performing arts, that's just not the way it works. You are forever scrambling around but. It's something we can't stop ourselves from doing. It's our calling and anything else would feel like being put into a box and put into a prison. So we will keep on tracking. And I'm here cheerleading Rebecca and the work that she creates. she is, free to love on Instagram and she is, pure love. She reminds me of the fairy of pure joy that Brian fr. Draws. If you, if you google the fairy of pure joy, you'll see what I mean. she's a joyful, beautiful being. thank you Rebecca, for sharing your time with us your insights, your wisdom and medicine. I can see from. Her posts that her medicine spilled out into Columbia and Columbia spilled its medicine into her. And that's a wonderful thing, and that's part of working with the land and connecting with different communities and people, and us sharing our wisdom and medicine and love and knowledge and connection with each other. People are such amazing things. So thank you dear listeners, and I look forward to speaking to you again next week. See the anon.