Nonsense in the Chaos

#29 Fool… FOOL! Dan Sumption and Playing with Possibility.

• Jolie Rose • Season 2 • Episode 29

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Dan is a fascinating fellow, filled with curiosity and a love for mischief, who has lived a rich and varied life from “doing mad things when the universe tells him to”. By keeping an open mind Dan found himself on an adventure with Daisy Campbell and 69 Discordian pilgrims, travelling on a pilgrimage from The Cerne Abbas Giant in Dorchester to the CERN Large Hadron Collider as part of a mass magical act. He also had the honour of playing the ‘Fool’ for Festival 23, where he met Megan Clifton, who we were introduced to back at the start of the Nonsense in the Chaos.

These days Dan lives with his partner off grid up north in the borderlands between England and Scotland, where he spends his days writing and publishing books, walking his dog, and singing to the land. That’s when he’s not unearthing long forgotten springs with his recently bequeathed ‘healing stick’. I’m looking forward to walking on a pilgrimage with Dan later in the year, for a sing song to the Michael and Mary lines. 

To follow Dan and find out more about his work go to @dansumption and @peakrillpress

Also mentioned on the podcast;

Witchfool are You? Course starts in May. Email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com for more information

La Beltane Festival Sat 3rd May - https://www.tickettailor.com/events/labeltane/

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com 

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

Please consider supporting me through patreon.com/JolieRose and like, follow, and review wherever you get your podcasts from. Share about Nonsense in the Chaos far and wide! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Thank you for all your support -x-



The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

Please consider supporting me through patreon.com/JolieRose and like, follow, and review wherever you get your podcasts from. Share about Nonsense in the Chaos far and wide! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Thank you for all your support -x-

The. Welcome to the Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host, Jolie Rose My guest today, Dan Sump, is someone that I met on the last pilgrimage walking the spine of Albion. He met us along the route and he's been involved in lots of different things and he's done a lot of archetypal work, I discovered Arche archetypal work through Jonathan K and it's interesting because. I've been working with Jonathan for 20 odd years now. I'd never heard anyone talking about it in the way that we work with it. Like literally just through Jonathan. And that was the only thing.'cause the only other way that I'd, the only other thing that existed was Carl Young and Carl Young's archetypes. And that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about what's your archetypal energy. His archetypes are a sort of stock set of characters, which is still what we are talking about, but ours is more, I guess like personally refined and bespoke than that. So rather than there just being the stock set characters that Carl Yang was using in a spec a specific way with the fooling archetype, everything that ever has been and ever will be exists in the archetypal realm. So the second that someone. Designed and created a supermarket, the archetype of a supermarket existed. I always give this example, I'm gonna try giving a different one just to not bore myself. The second that someone created the idea of a car, then that whole archetype of car then suddenly appeared in. The archetypal realm. And so that's got Henry Ford and petrol and oil and penis extensions and drive-in shows and all these things are attached to that archetype. They're all part of that archetype's lineage drive-through restaurants and, going on a road trip and arguing with your family in the car. There are so many things that you could do a play about to do with that archetype. And when you are doing a fooling performance, you get up from the audience, you jump onto the stage, and then you start talking to the audience and someone might say something about your a car and you're like here I am and here's my car. And you describe it and you get in it and you start driving around. And then at some point you could, if you felt like it was asking you to, you could hit a touch paper we call it, that sort of springs you back into the archetypal realm and you then. You are not just any old car, you're not just the car in the play. You then speak as and become car. You are the car, you are the archetype of car. And in that has all of these things, all of the things that I just described are all in there. And you speak to the audience as a car, as the car. And then you come back into the plate as a car and then you come back and talk to the audience about cars. And then you go back into the audience. And the question is, is. Did the archetype of the car put the idea of the design into the head of Henry Ford? Or did Henry Ford's designing of the car make the archetype of car exist? So which way round is it? And that's the whole relationship. And so when I work with people to help them find their archetype, I'm and so with Jonathan KI learned this world from Jonathan. K. It's about learning what your flavor is. So if you are, as we are characters in the play of life, wandering around the place. What is the atmosphere that you bring? Some people are very light and jokey and trickery and funny. Other people are quite heavy. You know, You've got the different humors, which I know aren't a real thing, but they're still kind of personality types. So sanguine is very flighty like a child kind of jumping from one thing to another and. There's people that are away with the fairies and then you have phlegmatic who's like the fire tuck very big and heavy and likes their food and it's quite hard to anger. But if you do anger them, they're really hot, they're very unforgiving. They get, it's a lot to flusser them if you do flusser them. And that's that really. Then you have melancholic with a very tall, thin, very Tim Burton esque characters who they. They have secrets and they'll have sort of secret supplies of chocolate hidden away, and they feel like no one understands them and are very poetic and yeah, do their own little thing in their own little world. And then there's a lyric who are fiery, angry, stomping around the place, always furrow browed, thinking too much. They're in a dialogue. 10 to the dozen, and we are not necessarily just one of those. We can be a mixture, like I'm a Flagg, phlegmatic cleric, choleric, phlegmatic. And also we can change throughout our lives. I've definitely chilled out in terms of my cleric ness over the years. And yeah, so some people are very warrior energy and what I do is I support people to find out what their. Atmosphere is because then it's useful. This is work that we do with Jonathan with, we do circle plays and we do these inner A world plays. And the more you do them, the more you notice what your atmosphere is. And I do the work in a slightly different way. I don't do it in the same structure as he does there, but it, I found it so useful discovering what my archetype is in terms of giving myself permission. And that's the word. Permission is the key thing. Permission to be yourself. An example for me is that I moved to this tiny little island and I got together with someone who's 22 years younger than me. That's outrageous. It's crazy. And I could have blocked myself from doing that and not ended up in the most incredible loving relationship that I, more just literally everything that I've ever dreamed of I could have missed out on that. I could have denied myself that by being like, oh, this is socially inappropriate, and. I shouldn't do that and I can't do that and blocking myself. But I didn't because my archetype is Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sex. And she, so within my lineage, because I've looked at and thought about what kind of representation I am of Aphrodite on Earth and within my lineage, I have real kind of working class trumpet. Type vibe. And I've got the Warrior as well, so I see myself as sacred who as warrior, which are characters like Mo Flanders and now Gwen and. Nancy from Oliver Twist and Willow from the Wickerman, who she has, she lives on the tiny little island of summer island, and the young men are brought to her to lose their virginity, and she like teaches them how to have sex. And she's, Aphrodite in Carner on the island. And I just was like. I'm I, this is who I am, so I give myself permission to be allowed to enjoy this beautiful love that I've encountered and not say, no, you're not allowed this, because it's part of my archetype. Like, where else am I gonna do? I'm meant to work in a pub and I'm meant to have beautiful, amazing, ex exciting and inspiring. Love affairs with younger men, and that's okay. And it's not younger men. It's a young man, but it's not it's living by your own rules rather than the rules that are being placed upon you. And we live in this world where there's this cultural. Thing of older men can date young women, and that's fine. But if it's an older woman, it's frowned upon. But obviously Bridget Jones has just come out with her version of it and everyone's like, oh yeah, that's great. So hopefully this stupid social thing will be dismantled. Because I actually think in the world that we live in today, the death rattle of the. Old guard of patriarchy is really un elegantly dying in front of us. I almost have sympathy for how embarrassingly what's the word, which, I mean it is elegan, I dunno what the word is, but just, yeah, it's embarrassing. To have to watch, but holding that space for the patriarchy to die, and that's what's happening. It is because younger generations don't think like that, so it is literally dying once these people are gone. It will be gone. The new generations are not part of that reality. It doesn't, it's, there might be tendrils of it in some of them, but like my partner and other people that I meet are absolute shining rays of hope and. They don't see the world the same way as these old rattling patriarchal eds who are on the way out. So it's the end of their days and they're dying un gracefully. That's the word I was looking for. Un gracefully. And it's embarrassing, but we've just gotta hold that space.'cause also it's not nice to be dying, so we are holding that space for them. But I do think that women are. Women my age and older have all awakened and have woken up to what is going on in the world, and more attracted to younger men because they are from the new paradigm I love all of my male friends here on Sarrc. I absolutely, hugely love them, but I am not going to. Give my life and time and energy to someone who drinks Carly. That's just not what was gonna happen. And the same with my ex-partner. I wish him well, and I love him to pieces. He's a someone that I care about and I don't have animosity towards him, but it just, he just felt like a dinosaur and. It is just a different world now. I'm living in a different world and so yeah, younger people are way more on the same page and I think that they learn a lot from a sexy wise old woman as well. So it's a win-win in both directions. I dunno why I'm talking about this. Oh, yeah. Archetypes. That's right. So yeah, we, archetypes are a big thing and. It's a really brilliant thing to learn about yourself.'cause it does give you that freedom and permission I feel like with the archetype, it doesn't, it's not limiting your choice. You can still do whatever you want, but it. Through my archetype. I know what textures I like, I know what colors I like, I know what my deco should be like. I know what kind of clothes I should wear. I know what stories and things I'm gonna be drawn to, and I'm gonna unapologetically embrace those things. And that for me is like sexy reds and raunchy colors and pinks and satins and, I want my life and world to seem like an Aphrodite temple and. I'm for everything to be sexual and lovely and yummy and scrummy and delicious, and be surrounded by roses at all times. And then my names become Rose. So it's just fully embracing all these things. And Dan, who I'm interviewing today is someone who is very connected to his archetype. He's the fool. And that's something that keeps coming up for him throughout his life and it's, yeah, it feels like it's part of, it is. It's part of his atmosphere and part of who he is. This foolishness and just openness to the absurd and breaking the rules and breaking the conventions of things. So yeah, I'm looking forward to meeting him and I really enjoyed getting to know him better.'cause I've only met him the once through. Walking with him, which is always a really nice way to meet someone. But then we've also interacted a lot through social media since. But yeah, this was the first time we really chatted and I got to know his story. So without further ado, here's Dan Assumption.

Jolie:

Welcome to the Nonsense in the Chaos, Dan. It's Dan Sumption, who is a friend of mine You came and met us on the tour, the last pilgrimage that we did along the spine of Albion. did you meet us twice?

Dan:

No, I just met you in Penrith and then I walked with you to your campsite from there.

Jolie:

was the round table. Is that right?

Dan:

That's right. Arthur's something or other.

Jolie:

is that because you live near there?

Dan:

Yeah. Well, in as much as I live near anywhere, I'm only an hour's drive from Penrith, which is like really local where I am. There's nothing around here.

Jolie:

And do you, so whereabouts do you live? Tell me a bit about home situation.

Dan:

I live right in the middle of the North Pennines, which is I didn't really know that this part of England existed until I moved here cause it's not really near anywhere. Sort of halfway between Newcastle and Carlisle and down a little bit. Or zooming in a bit halfway between Penrith and Bishop Auckland and Hex and Barnard Castle. very, very remote

Jolie:

I remember when we first walked up to COP26 and we got to Manchester and I just remember being like, Oh, we're nearly there. then being like, Oh, we've got another two weeks of walking.

Dan:

That reminds me A friend once booked me to do a photography job in Glasgow. I was living in Sheffield at the time. He said, oh, you live in the north, don't you? Can you go and do this job in Glasgow for me? I went by train. It took me like six hours to get there or something.

Jolie:

actually my favorite part of the country now. it's hard to say, cause I love everywhere. the West country is gorgeous. I also love East Anglia where I'm from, it's hard to say cause it's such a beautiful land, but there is something incredibly magical about the borderlands that I do adore. you've got the Lake District, the Pennines and the Eden Valley and the Eden Valley is the bit that we walk through.

Dan:

Yeah. So I'm just coming to the east of the Eden Valley. In fact, we just got a new dog and she came from the Eden Valley. It came from a farm in the Eden Valley. A sheepdog who's not interested in sheep.

Jolie:

ha.

Dan:

She's looking at me now. She knows I'm talking about her.

Jolie:

are you off grid? Is that right?

Dan:

Yes, we are. Totally off grid. I sometimes listen to your podcasts and kind of relate to a lot of the stuff that you talk about. there was no internet whatsoever when we moved here. There's no mobile signal. BT quoted us 25, 000 for a phone line and then said, but you're in luck because you live somewhere really remote. You can get a 4, 000 grant towards it. But that doesn't really help. So, like you, I believe we're now on Starlink, unfortunately having to pay Elon Musk every month for our internet access. But there you go.

Jolie:

that only occurred to me the other day. I was like, Oh no, I'm giving him money.

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

great.

Dan:

And in the middle of winter, cause we're on sort of solar setup, we have to really be careful with our electricity. we've done a few improvements a bit better this year, but last year we had about three weeks where we basically didn't have electricity. So that was quite hard going.

Jolie:

We regularly don't get electricity here. So it drops out every Wednesday. We don't get electricity. And I remember Hearing about that, like years ago, about in Europe, them having electricity go off for a few hours a day and just thinking, God, that's so crazy.

Dan:

Yeah,

Jolie:

for them. I'm like, Oh yeah,

Dan:

yeah,

Jolie:

and that happens all the time.

Dan:

you get used to it. Yeah. I mean, it's, I quite like, you know, there's a few hardships. I, I don't actually have to chop wood in the morning to make a cup of tea anymore. We have a gas stove, but having to think about things like that makes you appreciate stuff more, when you're really knackered, it does get to you. But it gives you more appreciation for how amazing modern life can be.

Jolie:

Yeah. And also it makes you sort of slow down think about. the production line of things, like when we can't get cargo

Dan:

yeah,

Jolie:

And so we've all got cupboards full of stuff, and I've got extra boxes of things up in the loft just in case

Dan:

yeah,

Jolie:

And you have to

Dan:

yeah,

Jolie:

and make sure your freezer's full and stuff like that.

Dan:

yeah. we were snowed in for a week. A couple of weeks ago, and that happens every winter. it used to be much worse. Everyone around us says, Oh, you don't get winters anymore. Like you used to global warming quite noticeable around here. But yeah, I mean, used to get snowed in for a month around here 10 years ago,

Jolie:

I guess you have

Dan:

but now, Yeah, well, we're kind of up right up on the moor. So our garden is kind of a bog at this time of year. And when it rains, it comes through very quickly. But yeah, there is a lot of water in the land.

Jolie:

when you say we, how many people are there?

Dan:

To me and my wife, Jill.

Jolie:

lovely.

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

you get on well then.

Dan:

Mostly.

Jolie:

Yeah. Cause it's me and Dizzle here, but we're very much in a community. we can't move for people in a way.

Dan:

Yeah. I do miss seeing, I mean, Jill sees a lot of people because she does home care for the elderly in our nearest neighbor is about a mile and a half away, so we are. Very remote, but she sees people in all the little villages around here. I don't have so many friends around here, but then what I tend to do is go off every two or three weeks to Sheffield or Liverpool or London and just, gather about the country and see people.

Jolie:

So what do you do with your time? You're writing books and what else do you get up to?

Dan:

I'm publishing mostly. I do, yeah, writing and publishing. But increasingly publishing other people's stuff. What do I do with my time? I've been trying to develop some kind of a routine for about 50 years now.

Jolie:

When you came and met us on the pilgrimage, what was it that drew you to come and join us and talk about your experiences of pilgrimage?

Dan:

I was trying to figure out how I knew you in the first place. I was following you on Instagram. I don't know if. I found you or if you found me, I know we had a few friends in common, but I saw you doing this pilgrimage. I was writing an adaptation of a story about King Arthur at the time. And you were doing these kind of Arthurian mama's plays. So that made me think it'd be interesting to chat to you about. I did a book called King Arthur versus devil kitty, because I discovered this 12th or 13th century story where King Arthur Merlin kind of tells King Arthur, I'll go, go over to the Alps, like over, over there in France, they've got this giant kitten that's killed all the people in the local villages. Why haven't I heard this story before? So I wrote it as a kind of cod medieval poem got an illustrator to do pictures and made a picture book out of it. So that was all going off at the time you were doing the pilgrimage.

Jolie:

got my copy of that

Dan:

yeah,

Jolie:

we went away to Dragon Hill, which is where the lines cross the Michael and Mary line and the Spine of Albion line cross. And our friends got a yoga retreat place there. And there was this beautiful apple tree in the garden that was beautiful. apparently planted on top of a giant piece of rose quartz. And we're there at the bottom of Dragon Hill with the, the white horse slash dragon looking down on us. And we just let this play come through. It started with songs, actually, the songs came through and then we created it. it was based on the stories and mythology we had been hearing when we walked up to COP 26, there was a lot of Arthurian stuff along that route. And we knew about the knights meant to be asleep under Audley Edge. we created the idea that King Arthur was

Dan:

Oh my

Jolie:

when the land was in need, they'd rise again to come to our aid we felt like the land was in need. when we did that walk, we ended up with two monarchs and three prime ministers.

Dan:

gosh, yeah.

Jolie:

way through leaders we were doing that walk. It was really funny.

Dan:

Oh my God. That was that time, wasn't it? Yeah. I was up on a hill in, well, I was on Dinas emirates, which is the hill where Merlin was taken as a boy. they were going to kill him and bury him to build a tower. he said, no, no, hang on, dig deeper. they dug deeper and unearthed two dragons and he made his prophecy. I camped up there for a week and switched my phone on in the middle of the week for the first time in a couple of days and it's like, Oh, the Queens died.

Jolie:

That happened.

Dan:

Those were strange times.

Jolie:

so talk about the pilgrimage that you went on because you were on a very exciting and interesting journey.

Dan:

Yeah. I went on a pilgrimage, led by Daisy Campbell, who I believe, you know, Brighton sort of amazing theatre maker

Jolie:

wow.

Dan:

It's really hard to find a way into this story because it's just so complex but basically she led a pilgrimage from Sir Navas in Dorset, which is the big chalk giant with the Big hard on to CERN in Geneva, which is the underground ring with the big Hadron. She took 69 of us pilgrims there, and that was actually inside another pilgrimage. So me and some of the others started off in Liverpool before we went to CERN Abbas, and then after CERN, we went on to. Bollingen, which is where Carl Jung used to live. the reason for that outer pilgrimage was Carl Jung had a dream about Liverpool, which he said was his most important dream ever. in the 60s, a poet did some dowsing and found the location where he thought this dream took place. Anyway, a bunch of folks from Liverpool Arts Lab took a magnolia tree from Liverpool and planted it in Carl Jung's garden.

Jolie:

Hmm.

Dan:

one of the other pilgrims, a guy called Eric Madden, who runs a place called Chima Bon in North Wales, is the sort of self appointed caretaker of Dinas Emerus, when we were in Carl Jung's garden, he recited to us Merlin's Prophecy, and that was one of the most Spine tingling moments of my life. It was amazing. But yeah, I mean, what to say about the, the programs we went to CERN, we, we immanent ties, the eschaton, which I can't even begin to explain what that is.

Jolie:

like the framework of what Daisy's about and that illuminate a little bit as to what about.

Dan:

from the KLF was if we knew why we wouldn't be doing it. it was just a big magical working, but not with a specific end. we invented all sorts of reasons for doing it as we went along. It was a big jolly. And we also stopped off at the temples of humankind at Damanhur, which is in the Italian Alps, a place where since the for the first 20 or so years in secret, a spiritual community have been digging temples under the Alps, and they have this huge temple complex. It's like the eighth wonder of the world. it was just an amazing time.

Jolie:

And you have a baby, is that right?

Dan:

We do have a wooden baby. this became clear to Daisy and various others after the pilgrimage. if you take the seed of the biggest penis in Britain, the chalk giant at CERN and bury it in the biggest hole in the universe. the large Hadron Collider at CERN is the most dense amount of nothing in the known universe. There's nothing in there. It's much more empty than outer space. Yeah, obviously you're, you're looking to conceive some kind of a child, various magical signals came through. So the we had a magical child that was born a year and a day later on Dynas Emerus every 23rd of April we celebrate the child's birthday. Fantastic sculptor, Pete made, a wooden baby about a couple of feet high out of a lightning struck oak tree on Dinas Emerus. there's a whole bunch of us who are foster parents to this magical child. Again, we don't know quite what that means. But some really fascinating coincidences and occurrences just arise just out of it's like a play, I suppose.

Jolie:

does it feel like it's still unfolding the play of all of it?

Dan:

Oh, yeah, it is. And I think this year is going to be a really big one. it's the child's fifth birthday. It'll be the sixth anniversary of CERN and it feels like something big is going to happen.

Jolie:

I have a huge feeling about this year. This year feels like a big year in

Dan:

Hmm.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

And so,

Dan:

I mean, world events

Jolie:

exactly.

Dan:

going haywire, but yeah, in not a good way, but I think I'm really hoping some good is going to come out of it. it feels like there's going to be interesting changes of foot.

Jolie:

the kind of embracing of nonsense and alternative narratives and a disruption part of the key to taking down the well woven, story that we are being sold through the news and everything, you

Dan:

Yeah, I think the bad actors in this, the people who are doing all the awful stuff, seem to have a better hold on that than A lot of yeah, a lot of our natural allies are kind of, clinging to an old model that doesn't really work anymore. Hang on, this should all be more sensible than it is. It's not.

Jolie:

No, it's time to stop being sensible. When the enemy is not being sensible in any shape or form,

Dan:

Hmm.

Jolie:

completely throw the script out the window. And yeah,

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

being silly yourself. I fully agree with that. And I think it's almost up to us to let those sort of people know that we're on their side if they do that, because, people need to know that it's okay. It's okay for them to drop the act and, you know, you don't need to be wearing a suit and you don't need to be talking in a particular way. Actually, we would be more supportive of you if you didn't. And that's the reason why these other people are. the backing and support that they are is because they're not acting like that.

Dan:

Hmm.

Jolie:

So yeah, that feels like it's quite an important thing. Excellent. Shall we pull a cards and see what the universe wants us Talk about

Dan:

Yes, that's

Jolie:

a little bit. does like chaos magic mean to you? Like, what's your take on

Dan:

Oh, I don't know. it's funny. I was talking to someone about this the other day. I'm not really into the kind of magic where you're like, I'm going to manifest something, for myself. That, results based stuff doesn't feel right to me. I guess what chaos magic is, is using anything that works. To make magic, but that's not my kind of chaos magic. My kind of chaos magic is just leaning into the chaos and allowing the universe to create what it will through me, I guess.

Jolie:

I'm exactly the same. I find manifesting quite dangerous in that

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

don't believe in it. I don't think it's real. You're, you're trying to, you're, I think that it helps to put some positive energy out there and to be trying to like push for something to happen and doing something make you feel a bit more like something's going to happen in a universe where you have no control. I feel like you're going to get more Results from things like encouraging boundaries in yourself, for example, by doing spells that support you with boundaries, just because that's reprogramming, that's neural linguistic programming, really, you're just, tricking yourself into doing something different. When it comes to a new house or getting a partner or something like that, I mean possibly it will help you be a bit more confident when you're trying to do it but I think you can also mess yourself up by being attached to an outcome that might never happen or might not be good for you if you do just do it. Jump on that and you miss out on something better.

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

to you because you're not looking at it.

Dan:

I heard something on another podcast about someone who was trying to manifest themselves a private jet. And for me, that explains everything that's wrong with that approach.

Jolie:

exactly. it feels grabby and what can

Dan:

Yeah,

Jolie:

it's either going to come or it's not.

Dan:

I think the universe has a much better sense of what should be than I do I've got certain desires and preferences but I'll let the universe Figure it out

Jolie:

fully on board about letting the universe lead. Do you feel like the universe is sentient?

Dan:

I went through a very kind of scientism phase of sort of Richard Dawkins and all that kind of stuff. But no, the more, particularly the more I work with this kind of stuff, the more you see, Oh yeah, there's something, something with a sense of humour, definitely.

Jolie:

is. And even if

Dan:

And a sense of

Jolie:

I always

Dan:

fun.

Jolie:

Yeah, there's part of me that's like, you're hurling through space on a lump of rock and it's whatever gets you through the night. And just being completely

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

Wasn't enough for me. there was something lacking. So for

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

whether it's true or not. It just gives the, I, I said on the immersion weekend, this weekend, cause I had a women come over for in bulk and I said, you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter, friend, Lee, he

Dan:

Yes.

Jolie:

used to say

Dan:

Brilliant.

Jolie:

that was his saying. And it feels like

Dan:

Oh, it's lovely. I

Jolie:

do the science, but I want a bit

Dan:

don't know.

Jolie:

I want more glitter on it.

Dan:

That reminded me of a thing Ken Campbell, Daisy's dad, used to do. there used to be a lot of dog turds around his house in Epping Forest and he used to go out at night and turn them into little creatures, put smiley faces on them and stuff like that. Just to make them more obvious.

Jolie:

a

Dan:

You can't punch a turd, but you can stick

Jolie:

Yeah,

Dan:

googly eyes on it.

Jolie:

on it. Yeah, I love Ken Campbell. I met Ken Campbell a few times.

Dan:

Oh, I never did. Oh, right.

Jolie:

in Brighton and I used to put on cabarets with her with Poppy Kay, Jonathan Kay's daughter. so that's how I ended up working with Jonathan was through Poppy. Brilliant. So, if I put my, I'll do this with my finger and you just say stop and I'll pull the card out.

Dan:

Stop.

Jolie:

Okay,

Dan:

Yep.

Jolie:

Okay. Oh.

Dan:

What have we got?

Jolie:

have a valour,

Dan:

Valor.

Jolie:

so this is ones and it's the seven of ones. I don't know if the number seven means anything to you in particular.

Dan:

My phone number is mostly sevens, which I love. My grandma used to say seven was like the lucky number. I used to have two lucky numbers when I was a kid, two and seven. So yeah, I like the number seven a lot.

Jolie:

what does,

Dan:

Valor.

Jolie:

connection to valour?

Dan:

it just made me think of that song, He Who Would Valiant Be. Valor, valiant, is that the same thing?

Jolie:

is.

Dan:

Is that to be a pilgrim? It is, isn't it?

Jolie:

There you

Dan:

yeah, I love it when I was a kid as it talks about hobgoblins and foul fiends, when I was getting ready to go on the pilgrimage, that song was in my head a lot because I was like to be a pilgrim, I'm gonna be a pilgrim. And pilgrimage has been much on my mind lately, actually. Yeah, I really wanna I'd love to go on your your autumn pilgrimage. I'm definitely going to do a bit of walking around before then. the CERN pilgrimage, because we, did it on a bus which is fine, but it, whetted my appetite for wanting a walking pilgrimage, in September, I met a guy called Phil Smith, whose book I've just published Phil Smith and Helen Billinghurst, who perform as Crab and Bee. I've just published their book, Crab and Bee's Matter of Britain, which is radical retellings of British folktales. So it's great. I'm really pleased with it. And we're going to be doing a book tour in May and June looking for places around the country to perform. But I met them in 2019 and I told them about the CERN pilgrimage and Phil said, Oh, I heard there's a ley line goes from CERN Abbess to Tolloper Corum, which is a little place in Dorset where he'd done an artist residency. So I went home and looked on the map, and they're only about two miles apart but I just drew a line through them. I googled to try and find about this ley line, couldn't find anything, but I just drew a line on a map, and then I ended up walking it that September. So I started off near, Golden Cap on the southern coast near Bridport,

Jolie:

Mm hmm.

Dan:

And I just walked kind of northeast up to Salisbury over about four or five days and had a fantastic time.

Jolie:

Yeah,

Dan:

it was just, you know, doing a random thing like that just produced so many wonderful little chance coincidences and happenings. And yeah, I think going on pilgrimage does that. And Valor. I've been thinking about chivalry a lot recently as well, I've been reading Percival, Parsifal. Parsifal Holy Grail quest stuff. Yeah, I think it's good to have valorous, you know, idea of something above yourself. Yeah, I can't really express it in words, but chivalry,

Jolie:

going on in the world at the moment, this is kind of what I'm writing about in the articles that I dig. So we're right for the Guernsey press. It's hilarious because I'm basically trying to incite revolution through the Guernsey press, but they're just completely not noticing because it's astrology. So they're like, Oh, bless a little kind of mystic Meg. And I'm like, yeah, now rise up people. I am saying to people, it's time. would you die for? Like, what is it that you actually

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

Because we might well be getting

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

point where we might, be having to lay our life on the lines to protect

Dan:

Yes,

Jolie:

in our

Dan:

yes,

Jolie:

far

Dan:

absolutely. a couple of years ago I published a thing called Krill Journal, my publishing company is called Peak Krill Press, and I just thought krill, nice little shrimpy things. it was open access, basically submit anything you want and I'll publish it. I meant to do another one last year, but I didn't, I want to do it again this year. I was thinking I might have a theme. what would you create if this was. The final year of humanity as we know it. Because things are coming to a head.

Jolie:

in my head, I've been preparing for this my whole life, in the 90s, I could see this coming. The perspective I've always had on it is the, like, Lisa Simpson vibe. Because literally they came out, Simpsons came out when I was little. So I grew up with those, you know, I was Lisa at the time. And then grew up and kind of found Homer more funny. But then At that moment in time, I got into WWF, I was into the wrestling, but I mean, the, uh, well, I did like the wrestling.

Dan:

Do you know what I always used to think of that as well, like wildlife funding got confused when people mentioned the wrestling, but when you say it, then I instantly thought wrestling. Yeah. It's switched. Hasn't it? Oh, dear.

Jolie:

But yeah, the world wildlife fund I've just seen for a long time that there was no way that we were going to do something about the planet in the way that we need to, which

Dan:

Hmm.

Jolie:

I feel like if there is some sentient thing going on, or if this is a game, or if it's a simulation or a play or whatever it is, The end of level bosses that we have make complete sense for where we need to next get

Dan:

No.

Jolie:

which is to go back to a more cyclical way of being. when we were last

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

we didn't have the understanding and learning that we have now from having been more linear. I feel like it is that thing of finding the balance that makes us the spiral, having the linear and the cyclical at the same time. It's not one or the other, it's coming together and balancing And then that might be the end of the game. we don't necessarily want that to happen because then that's the end of that and we start again. But, I do feel like it's for humans to get off the, you know like when a dog gets comfortable does the circling round and then gets comfy and lies down. You can't get that dog to like, change their behaviour. everything and disrupt everything without chucking them off the pillow. feel like that's kind of what happens with these situations with war and all that kind of thing for us to actually change things and make big shifts, we have to sort of have screwed up a bit, but before we do that in

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

lives, as well as in our bigger lives, it takes a relationship breaking down or having to move out your house or a parent dying or something for you to really change your life. So, yeah, it feels like it's kind of

Dan:

it's very hard to talk about because you are talking about people's lives, you know, people dying out there and there's going to be many more people dying. There was a great episode of the Emerald podcast. He did an episode on cosmic justice. His episodes are often quite long. I think this one was about four or five hours long. because he had to hedge what he was saying so much because, you You know, he was saying essentially that we are in a just universe, but It's hard to square that with the fact of so many awful things going on. But there is a longer game. it's hard seeing what goes on.

Jolie:

because that's why I've never been on board with Everything happens for a reason because it doesn't. I feel like the one thing we have control over is what we make it mean. yes, everything does happen for a reason if you make it mean that. If you're able to take things that happen to you and find meaning in them, eventually, quite often you can't immediately, but if enough time passes by, then at some

Dan:

Yes.

Jolie:

But that's

Dan:

Yeah. Most Most of the best. developments in my life have come out of things that initially have seemed terrible.

Jolie:

I always think of it like a tent, like the good times is the material, but the pegs that get banged in, they're the bits that give you shape. So, yeah, and the poles kind of sticking up and stuff they're the things that define your character and give you definition.

Dan:

my tent's got inflatable poles.

Jolie:

Lucky you. Brilliant. And that sort of feels like Valor as well. Temp poles and yeah, it's also the walking sticks.

Dan:

Yes,

Jolie:

There's the walking sticks.

Dan:

oh, you know I have here with me, right? A free guardian stick because I visited after listening to your podcast

Jolie:

and

Dan:

Oh

Jolie:

Gordon

Dan:

Yes, I visited Gordon and Geraldine purely having heard them on your podcast. I emailed Gordon and said, I've written a book about drawing trees. Do you want a copy? and Geraldine came back, and said, if you're in the area at all, pop in for lunch. So I did.

Jolie:

that

Dan:

I had a lovely time

Jolie:

That's amazing. So you're a as well. Excellent.

Dan:

And this stick, I mean, yeah, it was only about two weeks ago. I was there, but I've used this stick so much and I love it. Gordon makes these amazing hazel walking sticks.

Jolie:

Have you

Dan:

Yeah. It just feels like part of me now. Oh, I haven't, no.

Jolie:

Oh,

Dan:

I haven't thought about that.

Jolie:

name.

Dan:

Hazel.

Jolie:

I'm always a good name. Yeah. Mine's called Sherwin, which is the only other pilgrim that I met on my first pilgrimage. And it was an Indian chap and I'm pretty sure he realized that he was homosexual and was on a pilgrimage of just accepting who he was giving his job up and giving his life up and it was really cool. And I was like, yeah, good on you. named my stick after him, Sherwin. Excellent, right.

Dan:

I love to think about that,

Jolie:

have to feel into see what comes through.

Dan:

yeah, yeah,

If you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting my Patreon, which is patreon.com/jolie Rose. This is a generous, kind, beautiful thing that you can do to support an artist to create work that you enjoy. We sell things all the time through Etsy or eBay, or you go to a art market or go see a theater show and you buy a ticket and. We are used to that exchange of creative offerings, and this is my creative offering, but in the world that we live in and the way that I want this to be received and available to people, is it to make it all as accessible as possible. And I do that with all of my work. Like I, I charge for some things, but I put out huge amounts of free stuff, my video blogs and the. Online ceremonies that I do and just women's circles that I hold on the island, like I'm I do things all the time and even the festival that I put on during the day is by donation for charity. In the evening. It's ticketed to pay for the band. And yeah, I just try and make things as accessible as possible because I'm a low earn and I like to. Invite everyone in. I just want everyone to be able to come. And so for this podcast, I want people to be able to get it for free and it be out there in the world. But I do also really gratefully appreciate any support that anyone can give me for the output that I'm doing. So if you do enjoy this podcast and it. In some way enriches your life and you have the funds available to do, I think it's three pound a month and then nine pound a month, I think for the higher tier. And with the higher tier, you get the video of the podcast. You see me flapping my arms around whilst I talk. Everyone who supports me, thank you so much. It really is so hugely appreciated that's over at Patreon. I also have the festival, belting Festival, which is happening on the 3rd of May and tickets are now on sale for that. So it's 35 pounds for the evening tickets to come and see the bands. If you come during the day, then it's by donation, it's five pounds suggested donation that's going to the Professor Saint Fund who cover our prescriptions for us on the island.'cause we don't have the NHS here. So funds are going towards that this year and we. Dance, the May pole. We burn a wickerman. We have Morris dancing, we have brilliant entertainment. It's in a beautiful space. The blue bells are all out the island is stunning. And we do a beautiful ceremony to welcome in the May and to celebrate how gorgeous the island is. And it's just beautiful. I absolutely adore it. do come along if you're able to and you fancy a trip over to SARC and Seeing her at her absolute finest. Then come along for the 3rd of May. Then the witch fall, you course starts at the end of May, I'll be opening the bookings for that. And it's limited spaces, so you want to get in as quickly as you can. This is my offering of helping people to find their archetype. we go on a deep dive over a lunar cycle, and you get workbooks each week working with the different moon phase. And I support you to find your archetype and to connect with them and yeah, it's beautiful. I love doing it'cause I just see people come into their power and I've seen people like fully change who they are from doing this work and it's ongoing. So each year I do it still as well. And I keep finding new. Bits of myself and new relationships. It's mad'cause I only really fully considered and discovered the Warrior last year, which is crazy'cause it's probably like the most of, one of the most obvious things about me. But it was really in my blind spot. And that's like what I was talking about last podcast, about things being in your blind spot. The Warrior was in my blind spot'cause it's the bit that I feel I have to be the most apologetic for. Because it's the bit that's loud and brash and isn't how a woman's meant to behave. I've spent years repressing this part of myself and then suddenly it was like, oh yeah, I'm a motherfucking warrior because I'm a warrior, and let that bit in. And it was so empowering And yeah, so I'm supporting people with that, with the Witch Fool. You course. And that begins at the end of May. And if you wanna find out more about that, then email me. You can see in the show notes, there'll be an email address that you can get in touch with me through. And then we also have the Kooky Club, which is on Thursday 27th of March, this one's gonna be really good. it's gonna be a mega, mega kookie club. So do you come along? That's in Guernsey. If you live locally and are able to do that, I hope to see you there. All right on with the show.

Jolie:

Right, we'll do another card.

Dan:

okay, stop

Jolie:

Prince of Wands again, so we've got a lot of wands action going on.

Dan:

Instagrammers. well, it's the staff, isn't it?

Jolie:

there.

Dan:

Okay.

Jolie:

So you've got the lion. we're about to hit

Dan:

It is. Isn't it?

Jolie:

The next full moon's a Leo. Full moon.

Dan:

the fire

Jolie:

Fire.

Dan:

suit then right

Jolie:

And just look. I mean, it's a bit like the chariot card, but the chariot card's not going anywhere. Whereas this card is very much he's fiery. Firely going along. Looks very yeah, in his power. Do you feel, how are you feeling at the moment? Are you feeling full and fiery?

Dan:

coming into my power. I had my 56th birthday this week.

Jolie:

happy

Dan:

Um, To thank you. getting a dog as well. That helps getting a dog and a staff. and now I'm going somewhere. on pilgrimage.

Jolie:

You're gonna come with me on a pilgrimage.

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

because you're Aquarius you know about the age of Aquarius that we're in. Have you been hearing about that?

Dan:

Yes. I know there was all that stuff in the sixties about the age of Aquarius and what seems to have taken a long time coming, but we're there now, are we?

Jolie:

I think there's different definitions, so it might be that, Although I think the Age of Aquarius song was in hair, wasn't it?

Dan:

it was.

Jolie:

for why that was in there.

Dan:

Yeah,

Jolie:

but yeah.

Dan:

this is Pluto in Aquarius, is it that we're in now?

Jolie:

for the first time in 240 years. And we were, mean, when the sixties, we would have been not in the Capricorn age yet. So they were singing that song kind of before

Dan:

don't know. Hmm.

Jolie:

yeah, very patriarchal and institutional and heavy. I'm a Capricorn and we've now gone into Aquarius. how do you feel? If you notice the light in us or,

Dan:

Yes, there's something about this year. I felt it almost with the changing of the year. I just feel like things are going places. I feel a lot more together in my head. Last year I had a terrible year for many reasons. I was really down for a lot of it and I didn't get a lot done. But I feel that's completely turned around now.

Jolie:

I'm exactly the same. I had a really, and I had lots of good things happen last year. I got married, which was wonderful. And then we had Boomtown

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

and did the opening for Boomtown, which was a big thing.

Dan:

Oh,

Jolie:

was

Dan:

yes.

Jolie:

That's a really, that's, that's with Megan. Do you know Megan?

Dan:

Megan. I was wanting to mention this cause

Jolie:

wow.

Dan:

of foolery stuff. I've always really identified with the fool myself. When I was a kid in the woodcraft folk, we used to Morris dancing and I always used to be the fool. everyone else was doing all the moves. I would just dance around the outside with a balloon on a stick, hitting people. I met Megan through a thing called festival 23, which is also how I, It was literally the, the veering committee for festival 23, which my friend, the poet, Selena Godden dragged me along to was what made me believe in magic and abandon Richard Dawkins. And Megan was at that. So they had a random ballot out of the 500 people going to the festival to decide who was going to be the fool of the festival. And for some reason I just knew it was going to be me, and it was. And Megan made me a fool's hat.

Jolie:

That's amazing.

Dan:

around calling me fool. Fool!

Jolie:

That's so cool. That's possibly how we know each other is through Megan. that sounds like that's the

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

She's amazing. So talk about festival 23 and the number 23, cause that's all linked

Dan:

Oh my God. Yeah. everything for me has come through that in the last few, you know, 2016. So yeah, everything in the last eight or nine years. So yeah, Selena. Perform a poetry night in Sheffield, staying at my house and said, Oh, tomorrow I'm going to a meeting about some little festival. I think it sounds interesting. Do you want to come along? I think little festivals are going to be the future. I was like, yeah, I'm right up for that. and I went along and met all these people, funnily enough. I was, I was 46 at the time when, 23 years earlier when I'd been 23 spiral Tribe, who were like a rave crew in the early nineties moved into my friend's flat and they were all into the number 23. And I was, I was in my Richard Dawkins phase at the time, talking rubbish about magic numbers. And 32 look at, look out for 30 twos instead. 23 years later I was dragged along to Festival 23 and this woman, Anwen, who subsequently became a really good friend, performed a spell to make the festival work. And one spell was just like, ah, I've been looking at all of this the wrong way. I can still fit this into my scientific worldview, but there's just so much more out playing with possibility of just being magical. And Yeah. And so then I went to the festival, made so many new friends and pretty much everything I've done since then has revolved around that group of people who I met around festival 23 just fantastic, creative people who make stuff happen just open hearted. Yeah.

Jolie:

That's what Boomtown has at its core as well. So all the people that are creating Boomtown are all chaos magicians and they know exactly, you know, they're doing it purposefully. And it does feel so magical. Like, that's what I'm inspired by.

Dan:

funny thing about the festival 23, the veering committee, as they called it, the meeting that organized it. Yeah. So I, worked in the business world for many years and been to lots of meetings. It was the most efficient, well organized meeting I've ever been to, but at the same time, it was so much fun and chaotic. It was just brilliant. I want to be with these people. they just, get stuff done.

Jolie:

Boomtown's the most organized festival I've ever been involved in. Like Glastonbury, a couple of weeks before we go, we're still cobbling everything together. At Boomtown, they're asking for my, paperwork, months in advance. I'm Yeah, they're very organized. Organized chaos, that's what we like.

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

She's so good. She's so good at this stuff.

Dan:

Precision discordianism, they call it.

Jolie:

it feels like with this card. Like it's interesting what you said about it being 2016. So the last time we've got a nine year this year in numerology. So to add to add five is nine that's the year of mastery. And the last time we had a nine year was 2016 when all our masters died, when Bowie died and Prince and

Dan:

Yes.

Jolie:

and

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

died. And already we've lost Marianne Faithfull this year. Like

Dan:

Yes,

Jolie:

a lot of our before.

Dan:

friend Chris Barker, I published quite a few things by a guy called Chris Barker, who's amazing. He does brilliant memes and stuff. I published a thing called Death Star Express, which was like Daily Express covers from the Star Wars universe, all about Dishy Darth. every year he does a tribute to dead celebrities in the style of the Sergeant Pepper album cover. the first one he ever did was 2016 because there was so many of them and he put Lemmy on the front and it turns out Lemmy died at the end of 2015. Lemmy was the one who opened the flood gates. He was just like getting there in advance of everyone else. Yeah, no, he

Jolie:

So that was also the start of things for me that year. So up until that point, I'd gone through a really Difficult phase of IVF And then 2016 was the year where I stopped being a student. I was like, I'm an artist in my own right. my creative career began then. Also Venus is about to go retrograde and that's an eight year cycle within the same sign. So that's to do with creativity and talent, that's harking back to 2017. So like the things that kicked off in 2016, 17, there's some kind of repetition happening this year. And then also all of the slow moving planets like Neptune and Uranus have all swapped signs.

Dan:

You're the astronomy guide here.

Jolie:

like, well, whatever the last, the outest three planet, I always get confused which of the last out of

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

but they're all moving.

Dan:

Nep.

Jolie:

Yeah, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto, but Pluto, oh my god, yeah, now it's like, I don't know what Eris is up to. I need to find out what Eris is up to. But yeah, they're all,

Dan:

You about Pluto. You gotta aren't about the same size.

Jolie:

size. Eris. So I interviewed, do you know Joanne Tremarco? on here.

Dan:

I've met her. she was on the pilgrimage.

Jolie:

Cause that's her archetype. She's Eris, the goddess of discord There's a big red button. She'll always press it, but it causes so much creativity. it's like a forest fire and then new things grow. But she's amazing.

Dan:

Yeah. I love you. Talk a bit about astronomy Cause you do some guide stuff or something, but I've, like you, I live in a dark skies area and I've been familiarizing myself with the constellations recently. I just feel so much more in touch with the universe. I don't really know the movements of the planets. Although I heard that. Last week, were they all kind of in alignment for the first time in like a

Jolie:

everyone,

Dan:

or something.

Jolie:

in the pub go absolutely mental. we had to like throw out three people from the pub. It was crazy.

Dan:

Weirdly, I was on a weekend doing a thing called constellations, which is a kind of healing practice

Jolie:

Yes.

Dan:

And we were doing constellations at the moment when all the planets were in alignment, which is quite fun. I don't know. I'm not very good at feeling stuff like that. I don't really know what went on, but I felt like I was there to enable stuff. I got pulled into everyone's constellation. Normally you have about five people forming the constellations and everyone else is holding the space. I was in all of the constellations, so I didn't really get to sit back and feel what was going on. I was just making it, I didn't really know why I was there. I just saw it advertised and felt a need to be there.

Jolie:

yeah, it feels like you hold a foolish archetype. And so you're being pulled into these

Dan:

yeah. Yeah,

Jolie:

fool doing a reading just now. I got a reading and the reading was telling me what I already know, which is me putting my hair out at the moment with money and stuff. Just be like, I have nothing. And then I pulled the last card And it was the fool. And I was like, Oh yeah.

Dan:

I've really relaxed the thought. I was talking about opportunities coming through bad stuff. I did a talk about 10 years ago at the Petra Kucha night about how my career has basically been a series of throwing myself off cliffs, like I can't bear to do this anymore. So I'm just going to go off and do something random and see what happens. And somehow I always kind of get caught,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Dan:

It's always worked out for me. I really do relate to that.

Jolie:

the one thing that I do feel sort of the sentient trust thing with is that it just to let go, not trying to guide it and push it just to let it lead. when you do, the things that happen are so much more inventive and exciting than anything you'd come up with when you're trying to force things.

Dan:

Exactly.

Jolie:

and that's what I was saying about the astrology when I was more scientific, I knew a lot less about how the planets worked until I then went, do you know what? I'm interested in astrology. It doesn't matter whether it's real or not. I'm interested in the stories of it and then started following it and now can be an astro guide because I understand what the planets and stars are doing. And now I feel like I know so much more about science because I've accepted the art department side of things.

Dan:

Yeah. Yeah. When you've got a story behind it you can really understand it.

Jolie:

that makes my memory stick. let's do the last card.

Dan:

Okay. Stop.

Jolie:

Ah, cool. This is the Prince of Cups.

Dan:

Huh.

Jolie:

And this is

Dan:

Prince of cups. Okay. Hmm.

Jolie:

world. It's like an eagle of bird that he's riding instead of the chariot. So it's like stopping and

Dan:

Okay.

Jolie:

from this inner watery world place and reflection. And so how, how's that feeling for you at the moment?

Dan:

Well, I've been trying to connect with the land around where I live, and I feel like the land here is kind of made of water, we are up on the, it's wells up out of the ground everywhere. And I actually, for, for Imolc, I went, I found on 125 year old map, I noticed there was a spring marked which isn't on modern maps. So I went to the spot and saw a patch of damp ground. I started poking around with my tree guardian stick and I found this sprick, the stick went down sort of six foot into the ground and water started spouting up. I don't know how that relates to the card. Oh,

Jolie:

You found a spring.

Dan:

But yeah, I think I've mentioned, I don't really notice a lot of what's going on in myself. my wife often tells me how I'm feeling before I know it myself. but I am making an effort to try and go inside myself more, get out of my head and into my body. And connect with that sort of watery side more and I relate that to working with the land and particularly what's beneath the land, which, you know, the aquifers and the bubbling waters.

Jolie:

yeah.

Dan:

how I see that.

Jolie:

Talk about your relationship to the land and what land means to you.

Dan:

Well, I mean, I've always kind of loved the countryside, but living here in particular, it is so remote. it's very bleak compared to what I'm used to. But it's also very industrial landscape because it's been that within, within a mile of our house, there's probably about 20 or 30. Abandoned lead mines iron mines and fluorite mines. the land everywhere is beautiful, but not many trees cause they've all been chopped down for smelting or pit props And all of these lumpy bits, which I've always loved. And it wasn't for years that I realized that's the spoil heaps from mining and quarrying that have all been grown over. But also the more that we live on. Is what's known as a Hewitt, which is a hill over 2000 feet. there's some website where people go to tick off which, which ones they've done and it's description of our more is middle of more is a desolate more land and a featureless hill, even by North Pennine standards. Rating 1. 7 out of five stars which I love because it means no one's going to bother coming here unless they just want to tick it off or it's me or it's the farmer who's got his cattle and his sheep up there. So I've got this huge landscape to myself and actually it's, it's not featureless like anything. The closer you look, the more you find. it's a very slow working, I'm just like wandering around and now that I have a dog to force me to leave the house in the morning, I'm doing a lot more of it. But yeah, I just want to get to know every inch of this featureless barren moor and hopefully one day it'll start talking to me.

Jolie:

the land connection feels like it's the most healing thing there is. I'm 100 percent a fan of connecting to that deepening a relationship with it. And I feel like some of the things that you're talking about with not knowing what's going on in your inner world, I'm not the most connected to my inner world Like, I feel like there are a lot more sensitive people out there and the way I've always connected to my inner world was through the outer world. So I treat the outer world as a sign language for my inner world.

Dan:

Right.

Jolie:

treat me, the fact like, say for you, for example, you being in all the constellations and then you getting given the full repeatedly, like that to me is very clear outer world sign language. yeah, I'm always trusting what the world is telling me and what it's reflecting back to me. And when we do the pilgrimages, people who can feel the shape of the lines or, you know, they have all these sensitivities that I don't not believe. I think that's their reality and that's their experience of it. But for me, it's much more to do with the synchronicities and just what the

Dan:

Yeah. Spot on.

Jolie:

I just read the signs

Dan:

Exactly.

Jolie:

meaning out of

Dan:

Yeah, I mean today. since opening this spring, the land has become more meaningful. And then today I found a load of cattle bones from a dead cow that I had seen a couple of years ago, and then it disappeared. And I've been wondering where these bones were. And today they suddenly appeared. And I was laying them out on the hillside. And then these two ravens, which I saw a year ago, and I'd been hoping would crop up again. They started circling around me croaking and suddenly it's like, Oh yeah, everything's starting to speak.

Jolie:

That's so

Dan:

the outside signs.

Jolie:

build something around the spring? Are you going to build a spring

Dan:

Yeah, I think I'll make a little sort of, yeah, just sort of put some stone, dig it in a bit and line it with stones I've planted I don't know if they will take some little willow with these around it. they'll probably be eaten by the sheep or the cattle, but I'm also, planting quite a few alders up along the spring. The livestock don't seem to like eating them so much and they love the water. it's so denuded of trees here and I am now a tree guardian. So I'm bringing trees back to the area.

Jolie:

That's so cool. I'm really excited to walk with you.

Dan:

Mm.

Jolie:

doing some mumming.

Dan:

Yeah, totally.

Jolie:

we're walking in the direction of the Holy Land and it was pointed out by a woman who's going to come be a documentary maker with us that the archangel Michael because he's the top angel in heaven is the, angel of the Holy Land. So he's the angel of Jerusalem. And so when we walk, we're walking with that energy in the direction of the Holy Lands and we're doing the play

Dan:

like Corn Wall to Norfolk? Is that not the route that you're doing this year?

Jolie:

we're walking towards the east rather than walking the other

Dan:

Oh, okay. Yeah, because then there's, let me book the other day about the,

Jolie:

The other

Dan:

the Michael and Apollo line, which actually does go

Jolie:

all the

Dan:

to

Jolie:

I would love

Dan:

Israel.

Jolie:

route.

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

And like, that would be a nine month walk if we did it all in one go.

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

I have looked at that. I was like, Oh, that would be amazing. So no, it's more that we're

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

east when we're walking, we're going to be performing the George and the Dragon play, which is the play of the Saracen knight.

Dan:

Yes.

Jolie:

the story of the Holy

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

and to dismantle it

Dan:

yeah.

Jolie:

and explore as as we walk, talk to people about peace and

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

possibly World War III has begun to talk about how we feel about what's going on in the world and capture some of that. And listen to the land.

Dan:

It's such important work.

Jolie:

Yeah, I'm really excited. the chaos crusade is the last thing. If you had a chaos crusade

Dan:

Oh yeah.

Jolie:

what would you get people to do?

Dan:

So something I've been doing is singing to the land. When I walk I mean, it's kind of easier cause there's no one around, so I don't feel too embarrassed, but you can kind of mumble it. that can take any kind of form really. But like today I was. trying to sing my footsteps. I started doing this about six or seven years ago. I was walking across the moors and I could see a load of sheep in the distance. for some reason I didn't want there to be that thing where you're walking up to sheep and then you get close and suddenly they spot you and they all go running. So I thought, what should I do? I thought, well, I'll pretend I'm a bear that's just had its dinner. I'm not a bear that wants to eat sheep. I'm a happy satiated bear. So I just started bumbling along. and it kind of worked. These sheep looked happy. they didn't all go running off. So I just started singing to livestock whenever I'm out and about. And then I thought, I'll sing to the land and sing to the water. So yeah, sometimes I sing songs, but mostly I it's just a never ending melody that evolves as I'm walking along,

Jolie:

Do you know what a Joik is?

Dan:

I don't think so.

Jolie:

Tribes, the Northern European

Dan:

I think you mentioned it on the podcast. Was it on with Daisy?

Jolie:

About it with Daisy. Yeah. Cause

Dan:

yeah, that's where I've heard of it.

Jolie:

music really reminds me of Joiks. Yeah. You should look them up.

Dan:

it will do.

Jolie:

they're singing the land. And I really love that cause it's just letting something

Dan:

Oh,

Jolie:

So it's just letting whatever

Dan:

it relates to the songlines as well, I guess, doesn't it?

Jolie:

Yeah. These things

Dan:

Which I've actually, been rereading the Bruce Chapman, but I read it about 30 years ago. I think you said that finished you a lot as well. And I love the bits about kind of prehistory and how we evolved with the bits from his notebooks. I've just written a little poetry collection and some of it is inspired by that and by the idea of the Tower of Babel. Yeah, but songlines singing the land.

Jolie:

It's

Dan:

Hmm.

Jolie:

it is so rich. and it breaks my heart for people to not be connected to it. it does feel like that's the way for us to navigate our journey. Well, this is the end of Level Boss. The end of Level Boss is stop looking at the play that's being performed at you. That's just a great big distraction that is just to make the money.

Dan:

It's a soap opera.

Jolie:

opera to make you feel like you're not good enough so that you buy stuff to line their pockets and just turn around and look at the desolate, barren field that you live next to and go, Oh, hang on

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

Everything's here, these songs are here, the land is talking to me, all this stuff is here and I'm perfect, whole and complete and nothing's wanting.

Dan:

I despair at the moment and you want to go on social media, which I do more than I ought to, but then I kind of need to, to promote the publishing stuff to an extent. almost everything I see is kind of complaining about bad people, which I totally get, but I don't think that energy, funnily enough, I was listening to an old recording of my grandparent's religious guru today and he said, something about when you hate someone, that hatred grows back within you as well. And obviously there's a need, to get news out about bad stuff that's happening. But I don't think just saying, oh isn't someone an awful person, or have you seen what they've done now, oh god they're terrible. I think that just builds a negative energy within you. yes, be aware of that, but don't just talk about that. Find the good. Find what you can do or, put that to one side.

Jolie:

I think it's very much about being

Dan:

yeah,

Jolie:

with what's in front of you, is

Dan:

yeah,

Jolie:

land that you're in and the community that you're part of, and the loved ones that

Dan:

yeah,

Jolie:

with and yourself. And that's the stuff to deal with and, you know, find. Because there'll be someone in your community that drives you mad that you think is awful or whatever it is. And if you can meet that person and connect with them and find ways of working with each other, which here I'm forced to, you know, cause I'm in the government with

Dan:

yeah, yeah, yeah, And,

Jolie:

sides of the fence to. And And yet we're working together because we all care about the island and it's like a little microcosm for the world because we all care about what we want to live on this planet, no matter how awful you are, you still want to be able to live on this planet and for your loved ones to exist. And so how do we work out how to do this together? Even if we are completely polar opposite if you can do that with the people in your community directly around you, then that permeates out into everybody else. I always feel like you can only deal with the pixel that is your pixel in the bigger picture, but if enough of us change our pixels, then eventually the overall picture will change. I think sometimes when we stare at the big picture too much, it's just debilitating.

Dan:

and we feel like the only thing we can do is moan about people a thousand miles away It's not stopping them, but it's also damaging you by just focusing on that all the time.

Jolie:

definitely makes you feel powerless and I think it stops you from feeling the bravery that I feel like this card and the Valor card, the nice cards

Dan:

Valor.

Jolie:

put them up together because it is that courage to fully go for it in yourself. You've got all this fire and drive and walking sticks and then this inner world. So yeah, that feels,

Dan:

That's lovely.

Jolie:

That's wonderful. I feel like I could talk to you forever, Dan, and I'm looking forward to

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

weeks

Dan:

Yeah. There's a million, a million and one things that I want. Yeah. I want to talk about Sark. I want to come meet, come meet you in Dizzle.

Jolie:

please come to Beltane, the festival on Saturday, the

Dan:

Yeah. I am actually going to be in the South at that time because I'm doing a book tour around Somerset Devon and Cornwall I think 8th, 9th, 10th of May.

Jolie:

Well, you can

Dan:

And I got my uncle's,

Jolie:

Exeter.

Dan:

I don't do flying though. That's the thing.

Jolie:

you

Dan:

have to get a boat.

Jolie:

from Portsmouth or a pool

Dan:

I'll look into it.

Jolie:

I'm tempting you.

Dan:

I do like doing mad things

Jolie:

it's not that far.

Dan:

the universe tells me to. Yeah. I've never, never been to the channel islands.

Jolie:

they are amazing. It's ferry beautiful and just, it's, it's got the joy of feeling like you're in the nineties, the backwardness of that as well. So there's slightly bigoted

Dan:

Well,

Jolie:

that you're like, Oh my God, I

Dan:

Oh God.

Jolie:

anyone say anything like that since the 90s, but it's got

Dan:

It's in. Yeah. Well, it's like the seventies where I live in a lot of ways. Although, oh gosh, I was, yeah, but then you do get some wonderful community, I was actually in tears at a local gig that we had where they got some band that cost a bit more than the usual bands they said, we can't lay on food. So everyone bring your own food. And everyone turned up, we had a little community feast.

Jolie:

No,

Dan:

horrible noise. But it's a very kind of. restricted community. It's a very funnily enough, there's a lot of retirees here from Kent and Sussex. And I was like, why are they all up here in the north? I mentioned this to a friend. He said white flight. Oh my God.

Jolie:

yeah.

Dan:

That's quite possibly what it is. There's a lot of reform party support around here.

Jolie:

That's what I mean about meeting your enemies. Because,

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

and then we've got locals that just haven't,

Dan:

Of course. Yes.

Jolie:

there's a lot of really outrageous things. the things I hear said in the pub, I'm absolutely shocked.

Dan:

Yeah,

Jolie:

lived in Brighton for 20 years and being at the

Dan:

yeah,

Jolie:

inclusion and political correctness is like,

Dan:

yeah.

Jolie:

I can't believe what you just said. But then that's what I mean about meeting your enemy because I also like

Dan:

Yeah.

Jolie:

they're my friends

Dan:

And I think

Jolie:

it.

Dan:

there is a move, particularly in the sort of people I view as my natural allies, more kind of left-leaning for kind of canceling people. Like, I won't talk to you. I, I, you know, I got canceled because I friends with someone who talked to someone who talked to someone who, you know When, you know, say if you do live in Brighton, you're able to just be within that community of your natural allies and cutting everyone else off. It just become islands. And you do, you do need to engage with people who have despicable views sometimes because otherwise nothing's going to change.

Jolie:

So there is a gay community. There is a black community. There is, you know, different ethnic groups, but they are all separate. Whereas in Sark, we have one black person. one trans person. one gay person and everyone knows and likes them. even though they might be bigoted, they still like that person. you can then have conversations where you're like, what about how you feel about that person? And they're like, oh yeah, I like them. And it's like, well, yeah, but that's the point. So it does mean that we're all more exposed to difference. It's just one person, but amongst 500, that's actually quite a high percentage. little by little we can make a difference.

Dan:

well, it's so,

How fabulous was that? Thank you so much, Dan. Sum for coming and talking. It was fascinating to get to know him better I just love his attitude to life it's an example of the stepping into the unknown and how anything can happen, which is what the whole point of this podcast is. When I trust the universe and I step off the cliff into the unknown, amazing things happen that are way weirder and more creative than anything I could come up with. And you can see this evidenced in Dan's life that when he says yes, and he just goes for it and he just puts himself out there and puts himself in positions. And he just goes and yeah, it's great that he went and spoke to Gordon and Geraldine. I love that happened. That's my first knowledge of a podcast kind of date that people have connected and met because of the podcast. So that's really exciting and I. Just for him to go and do that. And he's then ended up being a tree guardian, and that's really cool. And yeah, all of the exciting things he's done, I would've loved to have been on the CER to Sun pilgrimage. It sounded absolutely fantastic. It's so much fun. I loved Daisy Campbell. Just, she's a, I wanna say she's a genius, but she's also a, she's more than that. She's a space for. Possibility and magic to occur. And I love that so much. And yeah, I have, I did know her in my early twenties, but it's a very long time ago now. for Dan to have been part of that and to have had that amazing experience of going to sun, from sun to stem, and then he's coming with me on the pilgrimage this year, which I'm excited about because I want to hold that space for possibility and for anything to be able to happen and yeah, how to keep cracking open.'cause I. I am, as much as I embrace all of this, I'm quite a, I'm all Earth. I'm from Cap. I'm a Capricorn. I'm very earthy, so I can be quite literal in the falling structure. I'm not archetypal, I'm. Commentary, which is at the front of the stage, talking to the audience like me doing the podcast. I'm better at this than I am at being archetypal. Say, Daisy Rickman with her music is being this kind of ethereal Kate Bushy thing. Like my natural setting is at the front of the stage. And that again, like knowing your archetype, it's just good to know where you naturally exist. And then from that, you stretch yourself by them pushing yourself into different places. I work better performatively if I start in the archetypal realm'cause it makes me start slow. It's hard for me to slow down when I'm already fast. So if I begin a performance in commentary, which is where I am now talking to you. It's really difficult once the adrenaline's kicked in for me to slow down. And so then to be able to go into a play and do four, four theater or go into an archetype's really difficult. Whereas if I start archetypally really slow and as if I'm huge, I'm a huge giant God and I speak from this big slow place and then move forwards into a play and then come forward and talk to the audience. That is much easier for me to do because I'm calm. I'm starting from slow. Yeah. So even though my natural place is at the front of the stage, that's not necessarily the place for me to always be and always do things. It's good to know what your other zones are like, to be supportive and to structure you and make life more interesting and make your work more interesting. I'm looking forward to walking with Dan. I think we've got a lot to, to talk about and it's gonna be an interesting experience and I'm looking forward to what deconstruction and chaos he brings to it and to work with him to support me to do it more. That's the thing is that I like collaborating with people and working with other people because it helps me be less rigid and fixed in my kind of commentary nurse. Yeah, looking forward to that. But I will be walking with Dan in the autumn. And that's all for now. So thank you so much and I'll speak to you again next week. See the anon.