#22 A Labour of Love; Molly O'Brien and the Power of Childbirth

Molly O’Brien is an old friend of mine and an incredible and highly experienced midwife. Molly has more than 20 years of clinical practice experience and has attended over a thousand births. She’s also a hypnobirth and birth preparation teacher, an associate university lecturer, has created courses for midwives, campaigned for midwife led birth units and has been a passionate student and enabler of normal physiological birth. 

Her favourite work was in the home environment and in a Midwife Led Birth Unit. It’s allowed her to attend hundreds of undisturbed physiological births and this has given her the opportunity to make a systematic exploration of midwifery skills and observations that can help resolve long difficult labours caused by a suboptimal position. The techniques and strategies that emerged from this time helped her revolutionise her own practice. She began to regularly witness dramatic progress as she put them to use in “difficult labours”. Now she teaches the course she developed for Birth Professionals, ‘Biomechanics for Birth’. 

Molly taught me the importance and power of sisterhood, from meeting her when I was in my late twenties. I remember sitting with her around the kitchen table, sitting with a group of women, spanning four decades between us all, and us talking about women’s issues in a way I’d never experienced before. Molly brought wisdom and insight to that conversation that taught me, for the first time, how powerful age and experience is, and how we’d all been sold up the river by being tricked into fearing age and turning on our fellow sisters, rather than supporting and embracing each other in our journeys. It changed the way I treated other women after that. 

If you’d like to find out more about Molly’s work go to https://www.optimalbirth.co.uk/

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

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Transcript

0:05

The mountains and the caves. Wicked witches. Crusting the unknown. Um, Welcome to the Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host Jodie Rose. This week is another episode where I'm imploring you, if you're a male listener, to continue listening to hear about the world of midwifery and what that experience is like for the women in your life and as fathers. the journey of your child coming into the world and the impact that that has on both your partner on yourself and on the child. this conversation I actually think is well of all the things that I've seen and done and experienced in my life. and I've done a lot of, a lot of stuff and that includes politics and it includes shamanism and it includes theatre and it includes arts and all sorts of things that are pretty out there and varied. I think this is the most interesting conversation that I've ever engaged with. The conversation of life and how life is created and how That process of it going from being inner world into becoming outer world and that delicate journey and transition and the support that's there and the guidance and advice and help that can be provided by community, by people around you and how spiritually, deeply, profoundly powerful this experience is and should be and then the effect of a world where there isn't time for that. How that will be impacting all of us, all of us have been born. we all got a birth and some of us had births that were diminished, you know, that was our first ever outer world experience. And some of our outer world experiences were, stripped back of what they could have been. Because there wasn't time, because of some silly outer world story that is nonsense the first six months of our lives impacts us so deeply, the process of giving birth is such an incredible, I went and did a doula course in Glastonbury on one of the pilgrimages. it wasn't last year it was the year before that. Honestly, I, I think it's just the most, I mean, it is obviously, it's the most magic thing that happens in our reality. I feel like every woman should do a birth doula course. for your own healing, because all of us popped at some point. Every single one of us had a moment where our stuff got triggered because we all have different stuff. Like some of us have lost us never had babies, some of us are in abusive relationships, some of us have been abused, some of us have been, you know, assaulted, single woman in to them. And the thing is with being a doula or a midwife is you have to leave all of that at the door. You have to be there for whoever you're supporting and support them, even though the person you're supporting, might well be going through or have gone through the same stuff as you, if you're someone who's, survived and escaped an abusive relationship, and you're doula or midwife to someone who is in an abusive relationship, who's giving birth to that person's child, you can do everything you can to help and support, but You've also got to support them in their life and their journey. you're there to help the baby come out. You're not there to, disrupt the family obviously, if you think the person's in actual danger, yes. 100 percent help them but You've got to be able to hold the space, even if you're not comfortable with that space. And it's a space you know and recognize and that triggers you. So it was just amazing. And we are these incredible portals and you had to relax to give birth. I always think it's like, going for a poo. you wouldn't be able to go for a poo if a load of people are standing around you with the lights on really bright and you're in the middle of a room, on your back. With your legs up in stirrups, that's just not comfy, is it? You're not gonna be able to relax. the whole setup is completely wrong for getting something out of your body and it's just such an incredible conversation The first time I got introduced to this, I talk about this in the interview with Molly just now I was trying to remember what the conversation was and I can't remember exactly, but it was the first time I'd ever heard about any of this and was just like, Oh my God. This is amazing. Women are amazing. Women's bodies are magic and they make humans. How cool is that? And just that, that is awe inspiring. I hadn't, you know, like I said, in other podcasts, I'd never really connected to the feminine before. And I think that was the first time that I was like, Oh my God, this is really cool. the fact it was these women from different generations sitting around talking together. I think my fear of age and aging fell away and I saw the power of sisterhood before me it was such a profound moment. I remember it so clearly. Molly has been in my life now for about 26, so almost 20 years. Yeah, almost 20 years. I kind of collect families. I love my family. So there's no real, reason for me to collect families, but I have The O'Briens, which is Molly's family, who I go to Glastonbury with and, yeah, I've known for 20 years. And then I have the Lloyds, who I do Kentwell with, who I've known since I was 10. Yeah, so 30, 35 years. And then I have the Wilsons, who I also know through Kentwell, but I, they were all children. Nightwhip. Some of the waves and strays that I picked up along the way they were kids when I was an adult and then they grew up and became my friends I got to know their siblings who were the same age as me they've done the pilgrimages with me and stuff I've got a few families where I'm like, I'm gonna come on nestle into your family shout out to all of them because I love them this was just a privilege and an honor to get to talk to Molly. Who's like a surrogate mum and I adore her. we've had a lot of fun with each other. She's not only a genius and she's an absolute expert in her field and in her art. But she's also hugely fun and really funny and just great company. So, I'm excited as hell to share with you and I'll see you on the other side. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. So nice to see you. Welcome, Molly. It's lovely to have you here. Thank you. So lovely to be here. I'd like to begin, first of all, to just explain a little bit of how we know each other. Do you want to describe how I know you? Yeah. Well, gosh, that was a long time ago, wasn't it? It's ages ago now. It was such a long time ago. I think it was to trying to think. You were just a wee, a wee young thing. I was 27, I think. You still are, really. Yeah. Yeah, it was to do with Kent Weil and, Ciaran. that connection from Kent Weil mutual friends and then you came to Shrub, and then you also got introduced to John, Jonathan, Jonathan Cain, The Fools and all that. So yeah. But that was a little bit later on, perhaps. Yeah, it wasn't too much later. tell them, a little bit about Shrub Farm, what Shrub was all about. Oh, right, well, Shrub is an intentional community, and we lived there for 20 years we were really into communal living. it seemed. like a very good idea. it was something really important to us. We'd lived on the road. And I suppose, actually we lived on the road by ourselves. And we travelled by ourselves. And then eventually, you know, you get to know the community that's on the road My eldest is now 45. He was a wee tiny baby and of course you're traveling with no mobile phones There's nothing, you know, so it's word of mouth and just, you know, serendipity and synchronicity, that we managed to meet up with people and connect. there was a good community on the road. in Europe. when we came back, we were introduced to a community in Suffolk. A hill farm associated with an environmental charity, tree, planting trees. Planting trees in the desert may be just a little bit mad. But it was a great, it was a great community. a lot of the people we met traveling were also there. So, we had those connections. that kind of folded for various reasons. I think the guy, Sir John Agnew, who owned it, he wanted it, it was up for sale. And we all had to move on. So Tim and I, my husband, searched out other communities because we enjoyed that way of living. We were young and foolish, obviously. we searched we went all over the place in our truck, back in the truck again with our kids. By that time we'd got three kids and, we really sought this kind of lifestyle of intentional communal living. To cut a long story short, we ended up back in East Anglia at Shrub Farm that was the community that we arrived at that was desperate for some people because it was only just very, very few people there we stayed there for that length of time and brought the kids up there and really enjoyed it it had its trials as well obviously communal living does but I don't regret any of it. I loved it and I probably wouldn't do it in the same way again. No, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot about myself, a lot about people, about connection, relationships, negotiation, so yeah. I learned watching you. I learned loads from observing you guys. And the kind of pressures and stuff. I think the main thing I realized from, visiting shrub and visiting you was that. your communal living is still within a community that exists within a wider community that either agrees or doesn't agree with what you're doing and has its own Views that was something I've never really considered before because when you think about doing these things It's this idolized idea of oh, I'm gonna run away from it all and I'm gonna go live in this little bubble where you're in a Those, I suppose there are, it's politics. I think it does exist. I wasn't so aware of it in the environmental charity community. Maybe I was oblivious, but I don't think it was as much as it was in the Norfolk community that had, a political dynamic that was, challenging. Just from what you said with the Kiln there was someone in charge and that's the thing that works really well at Kentwell although We exist in this very communal way because we're not Patrick and therefore we're all equal, there is still Patrick, and Patrick owns it. So it kind of has a bit of a stop gap between the community of Long Melford and Sudbury and Suffolk and him and his land and he chooses to do what he wants with it which kind of gives a bit of a blocker. ultimately it's his call isn't it? yeah, I get you, talk about what you do because one of my favourite moments in my life and it was a real pivotal key moment was sitting at the table with you and Gail and I feel like there was someone else there but there was definitely you and Gail. I feel like there was another woman there And we had a really profound conversation it was the first time that I'd had that kind of conversation with women from such varied backgrounds. generational gaps and it just felt like, I think it was, I felt the winds of sisterhood swoop around me it was the first time that I'd really experienced that and it felt like an honor to be there and be part of that. And I just got the wisdom and the power, the strength and the power. Of sisterhood and was like, wow, okay. I can see why they had to separate us because it was formidable And that was the first time I really got it. Maybe it was Ellie. Maybe it was Ellie, but I do remember. it might have been Ellie, my daughter. Ellie. because of knowing myself, it would be about. women. It would be about the female experience in this world. I can't really remember the detail of that conversation, but it was something that was really always, I'm always willing and eager to talk about things that are important. not only to me, but to society, I believe anyway, that, certain subjects are really important that we explore these subjects. I have to say that at Kiln Farm, I had probably, The kind of experience you had sitting at that table. I probably had it then when I was younger in Kiln Farm, the first community. we had a lot of women there and we joined together. there was a sisterhood, definitely the sisterhood. and we talked about women's stuff and we sang together. we did Tai Chi and we danced it was a real connection and incredibly powerful and important. I connect with what you felt because that's my experience, back then. I can't remember the detail of what we talked about. No, I can't. It might be woman stuff. it was about motherhood. I think it was to do with Gail and her boys. it was just motherhood and women, women's things Yes, exactly. So talk about what you do. My job. I'm a midwife. I love it and feel that it's, I mean, I'm a nurse as well. I always knew that I was going to be a nurse from the moment I was born pretty much, I would have nurse's uniforms as my Christmas present, be delighted. I couldn't wait to leave school and get into nursing college and become a nurse. one of the happiest times of my life was doing that and felt very, fulfilled and very comfortable with that. I went, I did lots of other things in my life which is good because you live and you learn. through those experiences on the road, having babies and so forth. there came a time after being on the road for, seven years and having not long had my second baby in my truck in the Pyrenees, in the foothills of the Pyrenees. Wow. That I, wanted to, I felt like I wanted to UK and learn more and study and maybe, go back into nursing what was that going to be? What did that look like? Was I gonna go back into nursing and do what? I felt I was really drawn to those transformative periods, in our lives, which is birth and death. And which one would I go for? I was going to go for the seeing people out and honoring that and respecting that and doing that as lovingly and respectfully and humanely as possible. or would I. attend births and help that, assist women in that experience to protect them, So anyway, truth. Birth. I became a midwife. I had my own experiences of birth, my first baby, Finn, in Shetland, I had a very difficult birth, I was a very fit, healthy woman, should not have been difficult, I wanted to have a home birth, it never crossed my mind to go to hospital, but I was, coerced, I was quite young, twenty three, Two when I was pregnant, 23 when I actually had him. And the GP basically said, you'll not walk through the doors of this surgery again, if you choose to have a home birth. And I won't send a midwife to you. and you could bleed to death. and as a nurse, you should know that. I was like, what? Hang on a minute. And I thought, if you really want me to go to hospital, I'll go to hospital. Cause I didn't really. think too much about it, but home was absolutely my first choice. But I ended up in hospital. He was, back to back, which is, for me, I don't want to go into that because I could go into it in detail, but I'm not going to. no, I'll write the second. but anyway, he was backed back, which was not suitable for me. and now, had I been at home, I could have been up and mobile and moving around and he probably would have turned and I would have looked after myself. I would have eaten and drunk and followed my own, body's needs. And I'm sure I would have had a wonderful As it was, I was on my back, and it was very medicalized, and I wasn't allowed to move, and it made it really difficult. So, I wanted to know why. And then, and then I had Ellie in the south of France, and then Kieran in the community in Suffolk, and these were painless births. I thought, Why does that happen? The same person, why? And I want to know it. So I went into midwifery with the question why, leading my, investigation, what's going on, what's happening? And 25 years later, here I am teaching what I found. this is my life's work. This is the culmination of having worked 25 years in the NHS, in an institution, knowing that is not the best place to have your baby. It is not the safest place to have your baby. Having that in every cell of my body was quite challenging for me but my goodness, it gave me. a lot of information that I've got now, so I'm grateful for it. I would have probably been an independent midwife. I almost went there, had an opportunity a lovely independent midwife was giving her caseload up, she was moving to, she was going to go to Africa and work in Africa. And she said, here you are, Molly, here's my equipment, here's my caseload. I was like, Oh my God, I want that so much. But, I was the main wage earner and it felt a little unnerving to give up that reliability that consistency of money coming every month, knowing that that was happening, at the time, in our situation, I decided I wasn't going to give that up. I would remain in the NHS. I learnt a lot, and I'm actually grateful that I did that. I do think that there's something really important about making change from within. There was quite a few of us in Brighton that collectively agreed to do that and people went off and became teachers and journalists so that they could, be the change that they wanted to see. I feel very strongly that what I've gained, by being in the system, working there with my colleagues who I don't see as enemy. I see the system as the enemy, not the individuals, not the professions. midwives and doctors, obstetricians are amazing but the system and the models of care are inappropriate and there's no balance So that's given me. you know, people listen to me because they know that I've been there and I understand what they're going through, So that's been really helpful in, changing the narrative, which is what I'm trying to do. And what's, talk a little bit about that. I think you'll probably come out in the cards because the cards always seem to. Yeah. but I was so chuffed when I did the birth dooling course and you were one of the people they mentioned, you are a midwife celebrity. And when, Grace, my friend here in Guernsey was training to be a midwife and I said, I knew you. She was like, Oh my God. And it was really exciting. Well, what I'm doing is, speaking very strongly to midwives because this is as much about the midwifery profession as it is about the women that we're caring for. And because that's what we do. Midwife means walk with women and we walk with women, we attend and serve them. And so this is about us together as a profession doing the best, for them with high quality information and practice. Now we're not doing that at the minute. And the problem with that is that most of us work where the women give birth, which is in the biomedical model or the technocratic model. And that's obstetric led. Now, we are midwives, we have a very different philosophy. I'm introducing a new concept, which is biomechanics. if you're a purist and you're looking at biomechanics, say you're a mechanical engineer, then it's all about forces and pressures and angles and vectors and so forth. But I'm just using some of the principles there, under the umbrella of biomechanics. I want to bring emphasis and seriousness to the element of birth that has been neglected, and that is the mechanical element. the mechanical element of birth is the baby passing through, making the journey through the pelvis. Now, we don't know much about that, Julie. Can you believe it? midwives and doctors don't know a lot about that. And that's appalling. that gap in our knowledge, does have an impact on how we help women when they're having difficulty with the mechanical aspect of birth. that's what I talk about, that's what I teach. I know how to recognize a mechanical issue complicating the birth process. many of the solutions are down to the woman herself finding that solution through instinctive movement. Easy said, but very difficult to have that. actually I just dipped in to the post. You sent me a wee, link to the previous podcast with Heather, and I haven't listened to the whole thing, but I dipped in just before we came on and she and yourself were talking about connection. this is the problem that we're not connecting in our modern lifestyles. We're not connecting with our own bodies, with our own psyches, with ourselves. we're on the phone, we're, we're doing other things. We're being distracted completely. So actually saying a woman's, the ultimate solution is herself is great right and proper. But how does she do that? Moving instinctively means, that you require Belief and confidence in your own ability to give birth, connection with your body to understand what it is you need to do instinctively. And, you need, the possibility of movement, which you don't get in the biomedical model. this is a big subject with lots of layers. Because most women probably don't trust their bodies and don't feel very exactly. And the narrative in the media tells you. Birth is dangerous. you could die. This is all terrible. It's really risky. so of course, they're scared. I asked my mum about her birth experience with me and she said, Oh yeah, I didn't know that there was any, any issues with giving birth. And so I just gave birth. She was 21 and she was in hospital, but she didn't know that there was any issue. So she just did it. had it been not being back to back, I probably would have been fine. I would have just done it. But the fact was, He was backpacked, which in itself is not necessarily an issue, unless it, creates problems for that mother, in the sense of exhaustion, extreme pain, and so forth. Bye! I didn't want any medication, and it was really pushed upon me to have that, I was doing some yoga breathing, and getting into a rhythm, but I was on my back, like on a trolley with big bright lights. This is not supporting physiology. Tony, you think about a cat giving birth, you give it a box and a cupboard, and you let it do its thing. Whereas if we put our legs in stirrups and put a great big torch on us and go, right, now there's going to be loads of people standing around you. You would not treat animals in this way. You wouldn't be able to go for a poo in that way. You wouldn't be able to make love and have an orgasm and, you know, how would you do that with everybody looking at you in a bright light on you? Yeah, totally. So the midwife free philosophy is set in physiology. So in our work as midwives, our work, where we sit in our work is in the home birth environment and midwife led units. home birth is set up in that way, because it's a woman's own home. in the midwife led unit, it is deliberately set up to support physiology. So there's low lights, the bed is not dominant, we've got birthing bowls, water, massage oils or whatever movement. we understand the importance of supporting physiology. Most of us do not work in that environment, and most women don't give birth in that environment, so there lies the problem. So, you can't separate mechanics from everything else, we aren't, a sum of our parts, we're whole people, we have Mind and body and everything interacts. So, this is what I've been writing about today. I'm writing a chapter in the book. I'm very, very, very happy, very grateful to have been invited to write a chapter in a very popular, new edition. Of, a midwifery textbook. You're so famous, I love it Molly, you're brilliant. Well, I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful that I'm able to, I hope, to be able to explain and, inspire. Yeah, you're using your voice, and it's good. To think again, and let's look at this narrative that exists now. Is it helpful? And of course it's not. And it's no small thing to be taking on the powers that be, because they are very set in their ways. it's an unquestioned edifice. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely right, and it has been for hundreds of years. Right. So we're gonna pull a card. So you tell me when to stop. okay. Stop. Go that one. So this is swiftness and this card's actually quite nice. It's The eight of, one. it's got this fiery swiftness, but in terms of the midwifery and what you were talking about, swiftness is, part of the problem isn't it? everything's expected to be done swiftly. That is so true. that's, one of The key features in the biomedical model, and the system we have in, out, have the baby, and get out quick. we will facilitate that in whatever way we can to make that happen, there is no care about the process, no care about the unfolding of physiology. It's just. Bam, bam, bam. Let's get you in and out. We want that bed. And then on the flip side it's the swiftness of how it can be swift if the hormones are, what's the happy hormone? Oxytocin. Yeah, when the oxytocin flow is flowing, then the natural swiftness can occur. so talk a bit about how you would support that happening and what that journey looks like. Well, again, I'm going to say that yes, some breaths can be swift. But everybody's different and we have sometimes got a lot of unpacking to do before we allow our hormones to take over and do its thing. But given the right environment with the right support there, the unfolding of birth is usually You don't hang around. You don't, you just, you get on with it. And at home births you will see that. For midwives, and I've attended hundreds of home births, you don't have hours and hours of the pushing part of labour. That's a rare thing. And usually that'll be a mechanical issue if that is happening, because it's not usual. so, so, yes, absolutely, you, the building up of it, you know, getting into labour, that's all very much a variable, you know, it depends on the person and their, you know, what's happened to them in their lives, perhaps even. in the right environment, birth unfolds pretty easily and, comfortably for most women. It can be intense and powerful, don't get me wrong, absolutely, but you're not there for days on end like you are in the hospital. they're trying to push you quickly, but they're increasing the length of time you're there. It doesn't work like that. also I want to just. bring in different patterns, different variety of patterns of labour that unfold depending on your, for example, your shape. I mean, maybe this is going off on a tangent, but I think it's really important. We have always, celebrated A OID shape pelvis. Mm-Hmm. And, as the normal, as the usual. And there's a mechanism because of its shape. this is how the baby will enter in the transverse. do a rotation and then come out, looking at the mom's bottom. that's taught in our training schools. And it's a belief that we have that that is the normal mechanism of birth. Now, we have different shapes, actually, and that, I won't go into it. It has racist implications where that came from. That came from the Caldwell Malloy pelvic classification in 1933. They deemed the gynecoid to be optimal. the, so now the other shapes of pelvises, for example, the anthrapoid has a different shape and therefore it had different mechanisms of birth, the baby will enter and do a different, journey through that pelvis because it has a different shape, which also reflects in the pattern of labor. And for these women, second stage is over in a pushing stage. It's over in the blink of an eye. it's very different to other patterns and I love that we should know about these different patterns. This is the thing that blows my mind. And it's absolutely not abnormal. Because that's what I was saying in the Heather podcast, I really wanted men to listen just to think about and be interested in. women's cycles and cyclical living in general, just a different way of looking at time and relationship to it, to be interested in different human experiences and ways of living. I feel the same about this with, with women and women's bodies and just the whole concept. Cause when I did the doula training, It blew my mind how incredible our bodies are and the things they do. That is just absolutely gobsmacking. And also how we'd been through so much, what you were just saying about the things you need to unpack beforehand. Like there was about, 12, I don't know, but between 12 and 20 of us in this group and at different points, Each one of us popped a different thing because she was addressing, the different things that obviously women go through that you might be having to deal with, like a coercive partner or an abusive partner that you're trying to support them give birth, but they've got this situation hanging over them. One thing was, birth trauma that came up and a lot of women suddenly left crying and and then it got Infertility and that's when I popped and it was just all the different things that women go through We've gone through a lot and the emotional element is so and then we're expected to fully open up And pass a human through us without any hang ups when we're all groomed to hate our bodies and feel disassociated from our bodies it's just such a mega journey. Absolutely. it's disrespectful and inhumane to expect women To give birth to their newborns, their next generation, it should be revered, it should be respected, and we should be careful for them, lovingly, and, and, that's, that's what I hope I can do. Bring that kind of narrative. Yeah, so it's not about churning them through the beds. the swiftness, you're absolutely right. That's the intention in the existing model, although it never achieves it. It actually damages women, harms them, keeps them there for much longer than they would normally be if they had been left to their own devices. They probably would have given birth hours and hours ago. And the effect it then has on those beings that are born and society at large, they're being robbed of that birthing experience and connection that they could be having with their mother. there's so much damage that's done through doing that, that again, causes slowness and all of the alcoholism and drug abuse and stuff that's probably clogging up the system as well is all coming from this case. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. If you enjoy this Patreon. Patreon forward slash JolieRose If you do want to support me on Patreon then please will you go through the website rather than doing it through the app on your phone if you have an iPhone because Apple have now made a thing where if you go through the phone to do it, it will charge 30%, Apple will just take 30%, which is just them being greedy stealing bastards and completely taking advantage of the fact that a lot of artists and the artistic community and world use Apple. And it's like, why, like, literally it's nothing to do with Apple. Patreon takes a bit of money, which is completely understandable because they're providing a service. I don't mind that. Apple, what the hell have they got to do with anything? They're not making the art. They're not creating the work. It literally has nothing to do with them. And I don't even use Apple, not even an Apple customer. if you are an Apple customer, then please go through your laptop and subscribe that way, because if you do it through the phone app, it will take 30 percent off if you are unable to support financially, then that's completely Utterly fine. Please enjoy the podcast for free because someone who has got the money is paying on your behalf. And so it's an act of generosity and kindness and a circle of support, which Is why I love this way of, doing things and creating work because if you've got the money, I mean, I support a bunch of artists on Patreon because I listen to their podcast every week and I'm just like, yeah, I'm happy to give them a little bit of something. And so I give them something just because I listen, I'll give them a few quid for listening, which is what you can do on my one. Or if you want to give a bit more than you'll get to watch the videos of the podcast and there's other content on there as well that I put up. so there's some artists that I follow that I pay quite a bit of money to because, they're doing a school or training and things like that. And I might do things like that from time to time. I have done that in the past. If you go on my Patreon, you'll see that there's lots of back catalogue stuff where I do like an Ikigai course, which helps you find your life purpose. And other things like a writing course that I did on there, connecting with your creativity. So yeah, there's actually quite a bit of content on there, from the past and I might do that again at some point. And especially over the winter, I'm thinking, of doing a creation hibernation from January to February, where I'll do a digital detox and possibly immerse myself in a bit of a writing retreat thingy there. So if you wanted to join me with that, then that would be a way of connecting with me. I'm about to go away to the UK for two weeks and see what I think about how best to do that. So watch this space and I'll let you know more about that in the future. And yeah, I hope you're enjoying the show. Be great to hear from you. And if you're able to leave reviews or feedback, then that would be amazing. it's just good to know what you think. And if it's something that's, that's giving you pleasure and that you're enjoying, I would love to hear about it. Definitely tell people, share and anywhere that you can subscribe or give it reviews and stars, then please do that. All right. Thank you so much. And on with the show. right. It's the next card. So you tell me when to stop. Oh, there. Okay. this one is, the three of discs and it's work, which is what we've been talking about. I would say it's very much to do with the physical world. So where are you going? What are you doing? what are you creating with your work? What's the Molly empire that you're doing? I've been doing this on my own as in physically getting out there and traveling everywhere. to talk about this, to teach to send this message. I've been to Santiago in Chile. I've been all over Spain, all over the UK, rural Wales, Ireland. The North of Scotland, Stornoway, Inverness, Glasgow, Edinburgh, London. I've been, I would go everywhere. Because if somebody wants to hear about this, I'm there. But it's exhausting. Utterly, utterly exhausting. And of course Tim is really helping massively. He puts together the dates and organization of the courses and where I would go and answers all the emails and deals with all that side of it. So it's just been the two of us, but because it's grown so much, I need a team. I want to sit back a little because I am tired and also want to write how can I do this more effectively, I've known for years that I need to put this on. I do teach online, but my teaching online entails me sitting at the computer for eight hours that day teaching. engaging, with, 20 odd people online, the feedback's really great, but it's intense for everybody, including me, we're all sitting too long, which is, you know, sitting is new smoking. my pelvis hurts and, it's really hard. So what I want to do is actually, get the. information into modules. Also, I go off in tangents because I've got that kind of brain, and my brain is bursting full of information and everything's related. I want to create nice little modules that are bite sized chunks of information relevant to different people's work because I teach yoga teachers. hypnobirthing teachers, midwives, obstetricians, physiotherapists, you know, anybody who has anything to do with pregnancy and birth. some things will be more relevant to others and I want to, create a batch of modules and then maybe just do a webinar to pull things together. So I'm actually working less, in that way. But I have to do all that work. And I have a train the trainers program for all the hospitals and they're asking for that. I have got a lovely, experienced midwife who's going to be helping me. she's a lecturer and a very experienced midwife and she's just wonderful. And so she's been training with me and she's going to start to teach the practical element. I need a few more that will build and, we'll get out there and train people, home made wives in hospitals to then start training their staff, for your programme. it's really been on the cards for quite some time. I just haven't had the time or headspace or energy To give it due attention and to make it happen. there's several reasons for that. one of it is also Jolie. when you've got a good formula and it works. It's hard to step out of that for fear that what you create next is not going to be as good. Because I've got great feedback on these courses. I mean, incredible feedback. So there's a wee bit of trepidation, but can I keep doing it? It's the trust of passing it on to others as well to be able to pass it on. So teaching people to be able to pass it on. I see this with Jonathan Kaye, you know, he's got this amazing formula Like he's very special. You're very special. There's something that you've achieved that is so part of who you are in your life experience it's how to pass it on as much as you can. And with Jonathan, it's accepting in a way that it won't show up and look the same in everybody else. So my connection to fooling I've taken what I learned from him and use it in everything I do in this podcast. I'd say this is a foolish podcast. it doesn't look anything like the way he does it. there's an element of having to let it. go and trusting it running out into the world, but it ripples and permeates into different, a myriad of different guises. So it won't all come through the prism of Molly, but there will be other shapes it takes you're absolutely right with all that. there is, an element of that You're absolutely correct. But there's also a message that flips the narrative on its head and creates a new narrative. that is, something I've been doing for 20 odd years and I have that in every cell of my body. it's easy for me to do that. But it's not so easy for those who have been entrenched in the system. They start to see it and go, Oh yes, doing one course opens their mind to that possibility, but they go slip back in to the narrative very easily because that's human nature this will take a little time to continue to reinforce a new narrative that is much more logical. We tend, well, midwives and obstetricians tend to blame the baby or the baby's in an awkward position. The baby's back to back or the baby's this or that And that's the cause of the problem. That's not the cause of the problem. that's a narrative I want to change to stop saying, Oh, she's got a problem because her baby's back to back. We need to stop saying that. The baby might be back to back because actually that's her shape of pelvis and that's normal for her. That's a possibility. But it's also for me, it wasn't, it might, it's a consequence. of the root cause. So what's the root cause? The Baby, don't just go into an awkward position just for the sheer hell of it. They're not, we've got to think about that. Why is the baby in a suboptimal position? It's because it doesn't have the space to get in to the optimal position for this baby because the baby's for the mother Because the baby has a blueprint the baby knows what to do, but it hasn't got space to do it because of a mechanical issue causing constraint and restriction So let's go back to the root cause. And stop saying, it's the baby's fault, it's, oh, it's the baby and the baby, no, forget about that. It's been difficult. And, and, and being difficult because that's a red herring in a sense, because it could just be normal. That might be normal. And sometimes the baby's in an optimal, what appears to be an optimal position, but still can't pass through because of constriction. So we're missing an awful lot when we actually narrow it down to this one thing of the baby's position. As I said before, the baby's position. in a mechanical issue is a consequence of lack of space. lack of space can come about because of misalignment, hypertonic pelvic floor, tissues that are tight. And we're just learning about this. For example, the fascia is an intelligent system that covers every part of our body. a fluid running through it is supple, strong and flexible and holds everything together. It gives us our form and we're only just learning about it. Yeah, exactly. I've never heard of it until a few years ago. Now it's like, oh, everything's fashion. It's all about fashion. So we need to catch up with that in the world of maternity because it's pelvic floor and all the connective tissue that surrounds, the uterus and the pelvis and runs through it and inside it Fascia is integral. So, learning more about that. I mean, I don't. It suggests that I know all these things, but I'm just looking at it from a different lens. And that's what I want us all to do. And it's being curious, isn't it? Because that's the thing it feels like with the NHS. And I obviously adore the NHS. I mean, now I live somewhere without the NHS, you know, my teeth need doing, I'm due a smear. I'm backing up with issues because I don't have somewhere to go to for free and we do not realise how lucky We are. Because you end up just not doing it. That's what happens, you just end up not doing it. Yeah, even if you've got the insurance, because you don't want it to make your insurance premiums go up, you just don't bother. So it's a completely different, attitude to health that I've never experienced. I've always just gone to the doctor with anything that's been coming up. I'll just go. And suddenly, I'm like, haven't been to see anyone since 2020. And it's like, Mind you, the NHS is struggling, isn't it? It's underfunding. But, you're absolutely right. And I love the NHS and I'm grateful for it, totally. But there isn't room for curiosity, would there? Being curious is incredibly important. As I said at the beginning, I went in with that question of why. Why does that happen? And I'm looking at a woman who's got what we call dystocia. labor dystocia if translated directly from the Greek, means difficult labor, difficult birth. And that is what they're struggling with. And why does that occur? There must be a reason for that. And yet we don't understand that. It's a spectrum of, well, oh, oh God, don't even, let's not go there because I'm going to get furious about that. And I'm going to have to go there now because I've said it, but it is so important to women because the definition of labor dystocia includes these words. This is how they describe it. Failure to progress, inefficient contractions, inadequate pelvis, insufficient maternal effort. She just didn't try hard enough. Wow. So yeah. Get pissed off because that is outrageous. Yeah. So this is denigration, you know, of our female bodies and our ability to give birth. and we don't understand the reason for that. We're just saying, these are symptoms like, inefficient contractions, contractions can be, affected by a mechanical impact. the misalignment, the feedback mechanism it's quite complex, but there is a possibility that's associated with a mechanical issue. So go to the root cause, stop blaming the women and saying, Oh, you failed. How dare you? Oh, God, it could make me scream and cry. It's like being called a geriatric mother, like, ugh. Yes, yes, exactly. So this is very cathartic work for me. It's really cathartic because I have worked in that system for 20 odd years, having to deal with that. And, you know, you're working in a team, you don't want to piss everybody off by going on about it, but I'm sure I bloody did. But I tried my best not to. I'm now able to deal with it. I know the injustices and I'm very much that kind of midwife and that kind of woman, who cares about women. Yeah. That's why you're great and I love you. Aww. I love you too. I love you too. So one more. Oh, go back to the other side. Go back, go back, go back, go back, go back. Yeah, there. There. Yeah. What have we got? Failure. And this, I feel, got very strong with what you were just talking about. So this is really What we just talked about. Seven of discs. Women feeling like they've failed and that feeling of failure in the woman's world. Failure. So let's talk about that because I've got different aspects of that going on in my mind right now. women being told they're failing in birth is, an abomination. That's a terrible thing. We won't go into it anymore, but that's been said to them that they have failed. It's written down in their notes. Oh God. Wow. They think that in a way, and then we reinforce it by writing it down. Oh, why did I have this section? This is their own section because you failed. that breaks my heart. And then we have the women, the midwives. the midwives are leaving in droves because they are, in essence, failing to do their job. through no fault of their own because they work in a biomedical model, which is not their model. some of them will because they'll choose complexity and they'll enjoy it and they'll be good at it. I'm grateful for those midwives, but the majority of the midwives don't want to work in that way. most of the work they do in that model of care is overseeing obstetric intervention. that is not midwifery. they feel they fail the women. Yeah, and that hurts. We've got moral injury and it always becomes a medical event, doesn't it? Like it pretty much most of the time will become a medical event because that's what they're there for. The doctors are there for that kind of thing. Because that system is set up for that. the midwives feel they fail the women they have moral injury, and they leave. Yeah, I can understand that. And that's a tragedy. Terrible, terrible. Now the other one, which actually I'm dealing with, it's not such a big deal for me right now, but it goes back to my work and I suppose one of the things that has stopped me from getting on and writing the modules and all the rest, it is a fear of failure. Of not being able to translate the excitement and enthusiasm that I feel when I'm there face to face. So I think I fear failure in that way. And I also, I'm quite good at writing and Tim has been great, he's really helped me to write. I wasn't really good at it, when I was doing my degree, years and years ago. And now I'm actually pretty good at it. So I shouldn't fear failure in that way, but Sometimes you just get overwhelmed by potential, inadequacies and failings in yourself. you're just being human, aren't you? I suppose I go through that. There's being a perfectionist, which is a dangerous thing. Failing is I can't remember the exact words, it was such a good quote that I heard The next step in your progression was you know, cause I, I'm writing my fourth book at the moment and it's nowhere near as good as it is in my head, and they never are. And I'm embarrassed about the other three that I've written, I'm noticeably better at writing. in my fourth book. I've noticeably improved. I'm still not anywhere near as good as I want to be, but each time I'm getting better I've got the next book planned. I'm going to write one for each of the pilgrimages that I've walked. It's painful, but that was one of the main things that fooling and Jonathan Kaye taught me because that was such a humiliating art form. there was, we died on the stage hundreds and hundreds of times, and I wanted the earth to swallow me up. And I did performances in front of people that I really respected and cared about. they were the most embarrassing, awful performances in my life. And I didn't die. No one got hurt and everything's fine. And I lived to fight another day. And it keeps me to just be okay with making a tear of myself. And I find it in like doing the government hair. Like, that's the most intimidating thing I've ever done. So on Wednesday, I've got to present the budget at our government assembly, because the head of our government's not on island, and I'm sort of in a position of being kind of deputy, which I'm not officially, but the deputy's stepping down at this next assembly, and I'm sort of the next. person in line now. Doesn't surprise me, doesn't surprise me. I don't know anything about budgets and it actually is the most scary thing I've ever done. I find it really intimidating and it's my poor person head and my, rebellious anti authority person. I'm there in what feels like a courtroom and it feels like I'm on trial and just everything about it scares the hell out of me. Even though I know these people really well and it's all kind of made up, there's something about it really cute. Also, it's not, and we're taking it seriously and we're affecting people's lives. This budget's going to affect our inhabitants lives, you know, and people are going to ask me questions and I'm not going to have the answers to it. So it's terrifying. I'm going to try. I'm going on Wednesday to, get prepared and go through all the questions that I might be asked and have prepared answers for them, but it's so intimidating yet we have to do the things that scare us, because that's what makes life worth living. I know I enjoy doing that. it thrills me. Yes, exactly. I've got a birth preparation class that I put online and actually it's not too bad at all. It could be better, but my perfectionism has stopped me from making that available. And it's sitting there waiting on the shelf because I could just make that better. It's like, really? It's been sitting there for ages. And Vermin keeps saying, have you got anything? I'm going, yeah, but it's not quite good enough. yes, it is actually good enough. But anyway, And the thing is in some ways I find that I have to, Put something out before, the way of saying this, I find it easier to edit something and improve it once I have put it out in the public domain. Because there's something about when you're writing it that you're coming from a different headspace to when you're witnessing it from the perspective of a reader or a viewer. So I'll be trying my best and doing this thing and doing this thing. There's a point where you have to flip it. a bit like flipping a pancake and put it out there. And I did that and I sent it to quite a few women. some gave me their feedback and some didn't, the feedback was pretty damn good, there could be little tweaks here and there. I've taken that so seriously that it's prevented me from actually putting it out until I get those tweaks done. I'm doing a 21 day challenge, Deepak Chopra's abundance challenge I love that. It's really good. Yes. and I'm enjoying it very much. it's kind of revisiting what I know and what I've learned in my life. And, and some of it's also new and I can see where it's going psychological states and doing explorations into what makes you, you. I've enjoyed that very much and I'm still doing it at the minute, It's wonderful and important because when you're dynamic and giving, you need to make sure you're filling the well back up again. Like that's the, that's the really important things to look after yourself. one of the things that's on the perfection. I think that's what I was just wondering why I brought that up. But it was because in the latest challenge. Sorry, I just want to just say this. One of the challenge the other day there, I had to make a list of things that I wanted to do, but had postponed I had to write my name and forgive myself absolutely and lovingly for not. finalizing and publishing online breast preparation course. Anyway, that's helping me get through the perfectionist. Anyway, that's why I mentioned it. I love it. No, it's good. Cause I'm, I'm interviewing a friend of mine, Daisy Rickman, who is a folk singer who's become kind of famous. she was my cleaner in Brighton. But she was the hot tip in the Guardian at the beginning of this year, and she's just flown, I've seen, you know, she's massive now and she keeps coming up on my Spotify. the algorithms are putting her out there and I'm really interested in talking to her about how she feels about how successful she is and how much she's still failing where's the line, at what point do you go, I'm a success? I suppose there's a little bit of humility there too, which is not a bad thing. No, absolutely. that's a good thing, but I think there's more of a heavy dose of, self criticism. Yeah, exactly. Self criticism and all of that. So yeah, and humility, but from a slightly embarrassed, Wanting more but being embarrassed. You know what I mean? It's that kind of like, when can you say? You know like the Closing of the Bones ceremony? That bringing women back in once they've been a portal and opened up? Like I feel, I do those ceremonies on myself when I've finished a big creative project like doing a pilgrimage or Boontown or something. so I've said to Daisy, I'd like to do that for her and do a ceremony for her to congratulate herself and thank herself that might be something nice to do for yourself at some point as well, when I finished the big thing, the big course or the big output, it's really nice I bind myself up with a scarf and you and I have spoken about this before. We spoke about it at Glastonbury. And I loved it. I actually do congratulate myself and I do say you did some good work there. I like that idea. that you've just suggested after the end of a project, just to wrap that up and to wrap yourself up in that, and I think that's important, I love that, and I haven't forgotten that when we spoke. Yeah, it's helped me not feel ill and crash, have emotional crashes at the end of things. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. So let's go on to the chaos crusade. what is something that you would, suggest to people to do that is a way of breaking the matrix or breaking the mold a little bit, something simple that people could try and do for the week, which could be, you were saying something earlier and I went, Oh, that's kind of a chaos crusade. Oh, the, abundance meditations, for example. I would recommend it because it actually helps you look at how did you get to be the person that you are You don't do that alone. What do other people bring? Where are your influences? What were the good bits? What were the bad bits? What do you need to shake off? What do you need to build on? I think it's really therapeutic. So how do you access it? Explain what it is. I was invited by a friend, Kate Verley. Kate is a mind, body, balance practitioner of physiotherapy she was doing it. one of the challenges is to set up another group. I am considering the possibility of doing it, but right now in my life, it would be, a little step too far because I'm in the midst of stuff. But she generated another group so it's come from her. So I think you probably could Google it. 21D. abundance, a challenge, of abundance. Deepak Chopra, you'll probably find it. on YouTube. That's where I'm getting them from. Well, she's putting a link in from YouTube. And, and be kind to yourself. Be kind to yourself because we all live in a very, challenging world. It feels like you're working so hard and doing your best I would say it's like pixels in a picture and within your pixel, you're doing everything you possibly can. And there's got to be a point where you're like, do you know what? I need to put my feet up and I've done as much as that. And also you've got to acknowledge sometimes what you do doesn't work and it doesn't help and you make mistakes. And that's okay too, because that's just being human. And does Ebbs and Flows believe that and know that? Ebbs and Flows. one of the meditations, I think it was maybe today, it's very much something I know about as well, but it was a good reminder. All of the ebbs and flows. And it was a little piece of advice when the shit hits fan for you and you're in despair is to know that this too will pass. But even more important is the good times as well and the successes and the excitement and the great things in life. And when you're feeling fantastic. Well, they're also welcome because life is yin, yang, ebbs and flows. That's how it works. Just accept it. That is the nature of life. Love that. Perfect. Well, I'd say that's a lovely place to end it. Thank you, Molly. That was amazing. I love you. Love you too, darling. I really do. That was just absolutely spot on. Thank you so much. So that was the incredible Molly O'Brien. I just adore her. She is such an example of a wise elder and how aging is beautiful. Her spirit is so stunning and she's so in her power. when I was younger and I sat around the table with her and I heard her speaking, it was what inspired me and made me realize that there was nothing to be scared of, of getting older. In fact, we were being tricked. there's a glamour. of youth. you look at people who have this kind of magic. It literally is like fairy glamour, just because they're young, there's something about them that's beautiful. And it's beautiful. Good for that. I mean, it's a lovely thing. And you know that when that glamour wears off, they're not going to be quite as You're like, yeah, you're not quite as, or you're, you're getting a few extra points because of the youth glamour that's currently over you. But once that's gone, you're left with the nuts and bolts reality of who you are as a person. And that's the thing that actually matters. And that's real beauty. like my mentor said to me, she's an older lady as well. He was. Also really stunning. She said if you do the work in your twenties, then your thirties will be a breeze. in your twenties, if you give up on thinking it's all about how you look or caring about what other people think, and if you spend that time and energy on forging a love affair with yourself and the world from a place of kindness respect love support and care. Camaraderie and kindness, then you will be beautiful and you'll be beautiful forever. And it doesn't matter what happens to your body or how old you get. You will be full of beauty. So glamour, the youthful glamour thing is beautiful. It's outer. And if you get hooked on that, you're screwed because it's going to go. So you're just setting yourself up for failure. But if you instead spend that time while you're You're blessed with this outer glitter. If you spend that time and energy nourishing and nurturing beauty within you so that you're full of beauty rather than beautiful. Then, yeah, when the glamour wears off as you creep into your 30s, then, and that's why people say that women are at their peak at 29, 30, 31. It's not because that's when you're most beautiful, it's because you've still got remnants of the glamour, but if you've done the work and you are also full of beauty, then that will be when you're the most beautiful, because you've got all the glamour and magic of youth at the same time as being full of beauty. So, yeah, if you're not full of beauty and you're kind of spiteful and bitter and think the world owes you something and full of fear and angry and hatred then When the glamour wears off at 29, you're probably going to start getting surgery and trying to fix things that you can't really fix because it's more of an inward thing. Now I'm not being down on people doing surgery it's your own choice and journey, but it's just something that I observed when I met Molly, she was growing old, In a dignified way was stunning hadn't had any work done and was absolutely beautiful. I just thought, you're exactly the sort of person I want to be when I'm older. I want to look like you. She's an absolute ledge. So that was the wonderful Molly O'Brien. I hope you enjoyed that conversation I've got more amazing guests lined up and I'm going to be talking to my friend Gordon Field who has one of those names that's like, Oh, that's perfect. Your name is Field. He has a deep connection to trees and the land. So I'll be talking to him next. And then I have, special guest who's an old friend of mine that I met in Brighton about a decade ago who has had huge success in the last year and has become quite famous. Her name is Daisy Rickman and she is a folk singer. She does, she's very Kate Bushy, but has a deep and melancholic voice and quality. Absolutely beautiful. she's a gentle soul and so is Gordon actually we've got two lovely gentle guests lined up for you next talking about the inner world it's a lot of inner world stuff in these next two chats thank you so much and I look forward to sharing these with you I'll speak to you again next week. See you then. Yeah. Cheers! Have a great day! Cheers! I don't know.