#20 Dreaming of a better future: Heather Sanderson and the power of cycles

Heather describes the menstrual cycle as “Death to birth, dusk to dawn, waxing to waning. In every cycle there’s an opportunity to capture a gem, if you’re willing to pay attention and integrate. Every cycle is a trip – offering you a peek behind the veil. Your work is to integrate this into the everyday. Every menstrual cycle offers the same opportunity; it’s a trip around your psyche, a map for self enquiry, a microdose experience of a rite of passage. Learn how to cross these thresholds skillfully and consciously by harnessing the power of your cycle, preparing you for the bigger whoppers in life - whether you are consciously inviting them in, or they land in your lap in a seemingly unsolicited way.”

I strongly urge everyone to listen to this episode, whether you bleed yourself or not. Everyone in the world is living in houses, working with, or hanging out with people who are experiencing this cyclical part of nature, and by understanding it better, not only is it a window into someone else’s experience of life, which is always fascinating, but there’s so much we could be learning from living life in a cyclical, rather than linear, way. Many men are coming over to the cyclical side of the force and are reaping the benefits of a life that’s more integrated, bite sized, and in tune with their surroundings (the cosmos, the seasons, and the women in their lives). And if you’re someone who does bleed… Definitely listen to this! 

Trigger warning: I talk about infertility

In this episode we mention:

Nine Passages of Women and Girls by Gail Burkett

Menstrual Mentor @kitty_maguire_menstruality 

Michael Meade Storyteller

Wild Edge of Sorrow by Francis Weller

Venus, Venus, Venus by Lisa Lister

From What is to What If by Rob Hopkins

Money by David McWilliams

You can follow Heather’s work on Instagram @libby_cup and Facebook 

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

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Thank you for all your support -x-

Transcript

0:04

The mountains and the caves. Wicked witches. Crusting the unknown. Okay. Yeah, I'm very excited to be interviewing my friend Heather Sanderson today. I met Heather on Sark before I moved here. I came to a festival called the Roots Festival and she was standing with a mutual friend of ours called Joe Perry, who I didn't know at the time, and I just thought they looked really funky and really cool and I wanted to be their friend and I was dancing behind them and they smiled at me and interacted with me. But it then turned out that Heather was staying in the same house that I was also staying at. And so we got to hang out and we got to get to know each other. And she was about to go off around Taiwan on a bike on this holiday, like traveling across the country cycling. And so I got hold of her social media details so that I could follow her adventure. And then when I put a post up saying that I was going on inviting people to come on a pilgrimage, she was one of the people that And very soon after the pilgrimage began, we all had to poo in front of each other because someone built the poop it, uh, incorrectly, for want of a better word, and in full view of everybody else. And so we all very, you know, rapidly became intimate with each other and now she's like family and I, I feel that I know her as well as, yeah, nearest nearest people and would be comfortable farting and pooing in front of her, which is a sign of true friendship. Heather is an amazing lady and this conversation, I don't know whether, how many male listeners I have, but this conversation is one that I. implore you to, to sit all the way through. It is talking about women's cycles. It's talking about it from the perspective of how important it is for us to become interested and curious in each other's, experiences of life. I feel like it's vital. if someone was to say to me, how are we going to survive? I would say that we need to be curious about. other people's experiences and to look at the world through their eyes, these little parallel universes that we live alongside. And this is an opportunity for someone from the male experience to listen to learn from the female experience. So I, invite you to listen in It's such an amazing conversation. I was just felt like a veritable feast. So sit back and enjoy, and I'll see you on the other side. what I'm really passionate about is cycles. I'm a menstrual cycle awareness facilitator, educator. I mentor, I create content for young people to learn more about menstrual cycles, I also do one to one work with women to visualize their menstrual cycles and use their cycles to dream into, I do all sorts of things, but cycling, cycles, all things cycles. And cycling physically. Yeah, although I haven't done any cycling physically for ages, but yeah. So did you go around Taiwan? You went around Taiwan and, I didn't cycle around it. I did do some short cycle trips in Taiwan. I'm trying to think when I met you and that was relative to which trip. I cycled all the way through, Korea and then got a boat to Japan and cycled up to Tokyo. But I think that might have been. Just before I met you. But you know what, it's so hard to remember. I can't really remember. and we had the pandemic in between. So that threw everything out the window. I've got no idea about anything now. it's hard to remember before that. It's like a different world, isn't it? Yeah, isn't it? And then, Libby Karp. still do that? Is Libby Karp still running? yeah, I do. But I'm in terrible shape. Saleswoman basically, I've just got like thousands of menstrual cups upstairs, but yeah, no, I do, I do lippy cup. It all started with, why did it start? It was because I was living in Vietnam and I wanted to be a digi nomad. I was meeting all these people that were living just with their laptops going country to country and I was like, that's me. That's what I need to do. I was living out there teaching with a job that tied me down. I was like, no, I need to get something that can take me to Bali and Thailand and all the rest of it. so I just looked for a product. I remember, I used to take menstrual cups over every time I came to England, I'd take cups back because there's this real, divide in generation. all the people, our age over in, Vietnam because of the internet, because of movies and because of all of that, a kind of living, it's like they say, it's like as modern as we are, but their mums are really traditional and using really traditional method for loads of stuff that, you know, women's stuff falls into all of that, anything to do with birthing menopause or menstruation Passed down to you in whispers from your mum and your auntie, but our generation just boomed into hearing about it on the internet. And so they never used tampons or pads So they were asking me what do you use? And I was like, okay, I'll tell you all about tampons and pads, but honestly, you've got to get on the cup, just skip that whole chapter because it's so much cheaper. That's the main thing, people in different countries. have different reasons for using cups and maybe yours and my main reason might be something like the environment, but for them it's a lot of money to buy those products, it was a bit of a game changer, but I would take them over and I would take the moon cup over, which is like the OG cup. It was just one classic shape and I remember them all looking at it going, we cannot put this in us. I was like, you can't. And that kind of opens up my mind then to realising ah, there's loads of different bodies, different bodies. I just thought a menstrual cup, just one size fits all. But actually, at that time, it was on the cusp of the menstrual cup industry booming into lots of different shapes. Now you've got the menstrual disc and the high cervix, low cervix, but that hadn't quite happened then. So I went out and made a tiny little cup actually am friends with Kath who, was one of the original, moon Cup creators From Brighton. yeah, so I had in, since I was, since 2002, so now 22 years, I've had two cups. I had a moon cup, which I'd had all those years, and then I was at a festival and I was in one of those places where I just, I didn't know what to do. So I just threw it away. I couldn't figure out what to do. And then not long after I met you and I got your Libby cup and yeah. in 22 years, I've had two cups. that's all those savings of all of the. different products I would have been using otherwise financially and environmentally. I've just used this cup. I use the blood for, feeding my plants and they absolutely love it. So every single month I put it in the water, mix it in the water and they thrive off it. I wouldn't live without it now. I think they're amazing. But even here in Sark, we had a conversation with a bunch of girls about it the other day and It just blew their minds. everything I just said blew their minds. they still don't use them They're just like, oh, I tried, and it was really fiddly. And it was the first time I started using the Mink Up. 20 years ago, it was really difficult. It is quite fiddly. But once you get the hang of it, it's so easy. it's ridiculously easy. Menstruation's one of those things that You think everyone's talking about You think everyone's onto the cup and has heard all sorts of stuff. And then I regularly meet people that are like, what? You do what? the plants thing is a bit, but I'm not really the gardener in my house. Aeris is, so he's sort of begging me, like, can we have the blush? Put it in the jar. I have a jug that I have in the bathroom. I've not quite, told Diz that's what's happening with it. Yeah. the thing that was really lovely that he said, which, it's just so beautiful. And this is why I wanted to encourage men to listen to this episode as well, is he said to me, you don't have your period. We have your period. And I really love that. he completely follows my cycle with me. we know that we've got sexy week, the week after I bleed is sexy week. And I'm going to be really horny and to make the most of it. And then I'll gradually get more and more just wanting cuddles and then actually get really claustrophobic. Like stop. No pizza telly. but we follow it, and we worked together on it and he says, I get four Jolies. It's brilliant, I don't have one girlfriend, I've got four. I'm a wife now. That's great that there's that kind of level of attention, I hear different people do different things. I interviewed some women the other day about PMDD they were talking to me about giving their boyfriends their cycle tracking information it's great. Because PMDD is so extreme, premenstrual dysphoric disorder, which is such an extreme mental health issue. they have to share that information with their boyfriends. Their boyfriends have got it in their phones now. I think loads of apps now you can link It's such massive information. It's a cycle going on in your home and your family and your relationship Yeah, absolutely. Because I got PMDD from IVF and it completely messed me up. Really big time. when I, got in touch with the clinic that was doing the IVF with me, I was like, I'm completely depressed and I've gone mad. they were like, Oh, I don't know why that's the first time I've ever heard of this. It's nothing to do with this. then I went on the NHS website and looked up the chemical that I was injecting into myself. And it was. the first or second symptom was depression. And I'm like, uh, well, it says on here that this is a main symptom. And yeah, I completely lost my mind from it. And it was cyclical. when I was going to the doctors, they kept trying to put me on antidepressants for it. their argument was that it will reset your brain and break the cycle of it. but I can tell it's hormonal. What happened was because I overstimulated, I then slightly became allergic or extra reactive to oestrogen. that literally the second I feel it drop into my blood, I know that it's hit my blood. I can feel it and I can feel it so clearly now. it has got better, but I've found ashwagandha is what's helped it get better. That seems to have leveled it out. it's the only supplement I've ever taken that I notice when I'm not taking it and I'll go wonky again. I also think that it's been time, you know, because it's been probably the best part of a decade now, my body's maybe sorted itself out a bit more. But yeah, it was fully, fully extreme. That whole experience is no joke. Hormones are no small thing, talking about IVF or, anything I'm doing a lot of work at the moment with menopause and I'm interviewing loads of women about their menopause experiences they're so different, but it's huge. And it's so mental, so insane. Just kind of getting round to the point of talking about it. I think it's like a massive way of pointing out just how extreme masking is, you know, in this world. Yeah. we learn in all circumstances, all ages to show up and put a brave face on when we're cycling. Yeah. Absolutely. and the lack of interest from men to know about it because like you say, you're all living in the same household as the cycle and the way I've started to think about things because I'm a bit trans. So I was born feeling male. I definitely felt male and it's the reason why I believe in past lives is because I know for a fact I've been a male before. when I realized I was female in this life, it was a bit of a shock and I was quite anti it until I went through the IVF. Journey and that whole sort of mother era, cause I feel like I'm coming towards the end of that now. Like it's the later stages of that, that I now not only feel female, but absolutely love it. And the way I feel about it, sort of feeling like a man who's found being a woman within a lifetime is that it's playing the game of life on a harder setting, and if you're playing a game, you want to be like, you want to be playing it on a harder setting. When I watch men now, I'm like, mate, you're on a really easy setting. Yes, you're doing well, but that's because it's on the easy setting, take your flippin stabilizers off. Now throw a cycle into that. Now try being black. Now do that and be gay, it just, it's so ridiculous and yeah, I love it. and every step of the way it gets harder, you're suddenly like, Oh, what perimenopause? What the hell was that? No one had been talking about that when I was younger. every step of the way, there's a new set of. nonsense that you suddenly got to deal with that you're like, what? It's so true. It's so true. every cycle, there's something to integrate. And, every time you integrate something, it's like putting a little gem in your pocket. And I'm not just talking about menstrual cycles. the pilgrimage we did together, that to me is a cycle. it's a rite of passage because there is this beginning idea that it's all requires the ego. And then there is This kind of of layer with our fresh socks on like we're going to do a walk. It's like that kind of clean sort of hyped up. And then there's the, the sort of the ascent and then the peaking and then the descent and the integration. that happens every single month for us. there's an opportunity for us every month, it's what you're talking about, these levels, it's a spiral, isn't it? Every time you cycle, you're doing this again. So you just want all of our leaders to be filled with women and have people in positions of leadership, like bled every month through their adulthood. how different things would be to have that, understanding that's why I feel like it's ridiculous and pointless for men to not be interested in it Surely you want to know all about this universe they've stuck their nose into everything else. why are you not? Look into this as well. and also how it reflects and works with the cycles of the seasons and astrology Because they're never the same, we've just started Scorpio season today And this will not be the same Scorpio season I've ever experienced before. It's always going to be different. Autumn is always different. Spring is always different. It's the same, but different. Like it always has something else happening because you are evolving and it is a spiral and you are learning. And just for it to be the spirals within spirals, it's so connected. we're so tuned in with it, having these spirals and connections that it's such a, More integrated experience with the world and with the cosmos Well, I think it has every potential to be more integrated. I think that's the dream, what you're saying. unfortunately, my fear is that we live in a world that is so distracting. we don't know how to integrate, or it doesn't occur to us to integrate, or we're not surrounded by people that teach us how to integrate, the dream is that we're surrounded in villages that grow up together and there's elders and they teach you how to integrate, every spiral and every cycle is another way of, knowing yourself better and showing up again, I know it's so sad when you meet older people, older women, who've only just tuned into this and their cycles have stopped. it's so good that you're working with young people and then talking to young people about this, because if you have your whole life to do this, like, I I mean, I, I feel like I was about hopefully about halfway through, my cycle life. Uh, so I, yeah, it feels like that was quite an interesting. Journey to at least in a way it was interesting to compare it to not knowing, my periods just happened at me and it. And it wasn't a sacred, lesson it's a teacher and, and now I, yeah, absolutely relish it like have had a red tent day on Sunday and just, I find it so hard to give myself permission to stop. But when it's a red tent day, it's My body's telling me I've got to stop now and I used to take pills and push on through and would ignore that. And now it's like, nope, this is a day to stop and rest and don't have to feel guilty about not doing anything. What do you do? Do you have a sort of duvet day? I literally do nothing pretty much. I mean, I'll put on some spa music and light incense Normally sleep, I just sleep and give myself that space. I used to, back in Brighton, I had a really lovely red velvet bit of cloth that I had a bed where I could tie it to the ends and I'd lie underneath it I would have a really sacred, Moment and eat chocolate and I drink tea and I'd switch the internet off I don't need to do that quite so much now because my life's like that all the time. I don't feel quite so much like I need to do a thing. I just let myself sleep. I don't do anything. That's interesting, because you live in one of the few dark, what do you call the area? Because of the stars, you know the Dark sky. Dark sky spots. I find that interesting that you don't feel like you need it as much because You're not surrounded by this kind of intense drawing out, which is so often light pollution or pollution. All of it. And I even have dreams about it all the time. Like last night I had a dream the last two nights, it was funny cause I went for a phase of dreaming about media parties up the shards or warehouse parties in Berlin And then that kind of stopped for a bit. the last two nights it's happened again where I've been dreaming about being in a theater company on tour And not part of my reality anymore. this reality is just grass. And stars. I feel my, definitely my cycles are so much more relaxed here. I do have a job now where I work in a bar, and without fail, other than this cycle, which is the first time in ages, but it seems to be without fail I always start my bleeds on a Friday night when I'm working at the bar and it's really busy. I know, and it would always shift slightly just to accommodate being on the Friday night. Damn you body. But, um, no, it's other, but that's it. It's only that. And then I can always relax on the Saturday and do nothing. So I do have that flexibility to be able to. Um, listen to it and stop when I need to, which I know is a privilege to be able to do that. Uh, but it also does mean I'm absolutely skin. Yeah, it is a privilege, but it should be, it shouldn't, it shouldn't. What I mean is, so it shouldn't be actually, it's like, it should be available. It should be, um, shouldn't be a privilege as such. It should just be. Well, you know, like clean water, clean air, like it's just there for us. My dream is to integrate like, because at the moment I'm doing a course, right? And so I, I'm doing, I'm studying psychotherapy. So I go away for two days every month to do this, this course. And I'm, it's so easy to commit to something that you've paid for and you've put the dates in and there's somebody holding you accountable. I have to show up otherwise it won't pass. I was like, imagine if I was that committed to my cycle, to my body. And every month there were two days where I went away and like you say, because I, I do nod to it, I do slow down or like you say, have a bit of a duvet day or turn the internet off or whatever it is. But imagine if I gave myself that full two or three days somewhere else, phone off to dream into, that is. That's the dream. And I managed to achieve it in other areas, I managed to, cause I often think I couldn't do that so much, it's so much rhythm, but I found the money and I found the time and I found the space to do it in other things, education, which is out, it's, it's the other side of the cycle, isn't it? It's that yang pushing out forward, like arrow going forward. Why can't I find it to do the other. the other inward one. and I've been talking about it, you know, when you talk hot air for a couple of years, and then it's like, I'm going to have to do it at some point. Yes. I've been talking about it for ages now. Well, why don't we help out? We should hold each other to account because I, I would like, the only issue I have is I only work two days a week in a pub and it does just always seem to fall on that day. And I feel like I can't necessarily that, but I do then have the Saturday off so I can, I can always stop on the Saturday and I do tend to, I do tend to stop and relax. This is what I'm talking about, right, I'm the same, it's completely the same, that something comes, it's like being a cyclical being and the world just doesn't stop and doesn't cycle with you. But I do find that time to, I can't accept shifts or work when I'm doing my psychotherapy training because I've committed to it. I find a way to block it off for other things. Yeah. So well, I can't find a way and my cycle is predictable, you said yours was, wasn't it? Yours is similar. It roughly is, but it's, uh, it moves between 23, days and it can, it can go from 20 to 30, but really very rarely so it is fairly predictable, but it's still not predictable enough for me to know that I don't do that week, I wouldn't say, especially cause if I changed it to the Saturday, it almost certainly would then wait till the Saturday. It just works because that's what I mean. I could be due on the Sunday. And it's sheep racing on the Friday, the biggest, busiest day of the year. And it will definitely come on on the Friday, 100%. So it's a little bit of a mind game because I even try and ignore it. I even try and ignore the date or whatever it is that I know is coming up. I'm like, la la la. Yeah. But my body just knows. So yeah, I don't know. There's a bit of a game going on with that. But yeah, it definitely something to negotiate with yourself, isn't it? Like how you actually surrender to that. Not just with your menstrual cycle, like with the. With all cycles, with the annual cycle as well, it's pulling you out. Since I've moved to the countryside, it is easier to just drop back a bit and I've really noticed just something really lush about following the annual cycle more in the countryside. it's not as dark as your skies, but it is still much stiller and in community as well. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, how do you see all the cycles? It's tricky. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. let's pull some cards and see what the universe wants us to talk about. so I'm going to give these a little shuffle and you tell me when to stop. There might be a bit of a lag. hopefully I'll get the card that you're talking about. I'll go like this and you can tell me where to stop. And stop. Right. Ooh, lovely. Oh, this is good. So this is the Princess of Wands, and she's a very liberated, naked lady dragging a tiger along by its tail, and she's in a flaming scene, looks like she's very much in her fire and passion. Wondering what that looks like or means to you. How do you feel about that? I think that looks quite menstrually. Yeah, it looks like she's swimming up a vaginal canal, doesn't she? Yes, it does. And then what is that down below? Is it a tiger or something? Yeah, so she's pulling a tiger and she's going past a flaming torch and she's got a wand in her hand. Yeah, huh, I don't, what does it mean to you? Do you know, I do not use tarot at all, Recently, somebody said to me you should do this short course on tarot because this teacher's amazing, and so I was looking at it But yeah, go on, tell me about it. the deck that I use is called the Thoth tarot deck and it's actually Alistair Crowley. it wasn't him who created it. It was one of the high priestesses from his coven created it. And each one of these was a giant oil painting. she worked closely with him to, capture the symbolism. you should be able to get the gist of it just by looking at it. And so with this. She feels liberated. She feels she's in her power, but it seems quite young as well. there's a youthfulness to her. I'd say this feels like the, teenage girls that you're working with talking to about their menstrual cycle. So what's that like? How's, how's the reaction coming from talking to these young girls? Tell me a little bit more about that. Good question. In a group, when I speak to a whole group, there's always a few, I'd say a small number of people who really, their eyes just are like, oh my god, yeah, like the full on penny dropping. I, I think, Just my experience of teaching over the years, that is normal for, for, for groups, like you, the information isn't going to go in with everybody. it will at the right time. Yeah. And, what I love talking about, because everyone knows how to talk about feeling a little bit slower. On their periods, even if they're not cycle aware, people talk about being a bit moody or wanting to just be on their own being grumpy. There's quite a lot of negative talk around it, being moody, being grumpy, but people don't talk about the rest of their cycle. when they're ovulating, how do you feel? Because I feel like I've swallowed a pill and I'm hoovering everything while taking new French class and downloading an app that's going to promise me everything. And explaining that to them, I often use the example of running a small business and all that's involved in running a small business. It's quite boring stuff. There's stuff that requires my focus, like spreadsheet stuff. There's quite creative stuff. There's stuff that really requires me to be quite daring, like branding and just mapping it with them. this is when I do that in my cycle. That's when I do that in my cycle. Talking them through things Do you know what, I can't focus on an essay when I'm doing that, or, I'm more likely to fall out with my friends or talk in this way at this point. And then you see the lights go on and that is. You know, that is why I do it. That's what I love. two or three days ago. What day are we on now? Yeah, the weekend, Sunday. Two days ago, I went and gave, a mid girl ceremony to my goddaughter. So she's ten. I've been promising it to her for about a year now. And, she's just starting, she's on the cusp of talking more about Well, she, she was explaining what sex was the other day, for example. And then we're talking a bit about menstrual cycles and what that is, but it's just on the cusp of her awareness of that information, really 10 is a little bit old for mid girl. Mid girl is, do you know about Gail? Do you know what's her name? Oh, I can't think of her surname, but she's written a book called The Nine Passages, which is about, yeah, nine thresholds of the cycle of womanhood, And so, the first initiation, I'll take a photo of the cover, because you'll like it, I think, but it's women and girls kind of initiatory. processes. So the first one would be, birth. The second one is mid girl. And so about seven years old, the idea is, is that you start separating where you have separated from your parents. So you really are individual with your creative thoughts, your creative ideas. And you can really see that if you know, many seven, eight, nine year olds, you just see They're heading towards that tween bit, they're not really kids, children, children anymore. And so we can see that happening, her clothes start changing and the way she holds herself and you can see her leaning into certain music that's definitely more her and you just see something coming together. So we did a mid girl ceremony and we sat down and there was only one other girl that was her age who she's known her whole life for the rest of it were adults in her life. It was me, her mum, her mum's my best mate. Her two grandmothers and then some other people. And, we just sat her in three circles. The first one we told her lots of funny stories about being a baby and what it was like to be a young girl. And she was laughing her head off. And then we put her in the next circle and we told her what it was, what we see now, who you are, what we see, and what really inspires us about her. We see you as an individual. you're one of us, you're one of our tribe, you're not just this baby. And then we put her on the final circle, which was this beautiful throne that we made. I have to send you some photos. And we put her feet in a foot spa and in it, we put all of our wishes with crystals and oil and petals. And we were just like, we wish for you endless creativity that never stops. And everybody got their turn to speak. Anyway, so the next circle that we'll do, the next, initiatory point in the cycle of womanhood will be Menach, which is first blood. Right. And I just like that we can now, she, she, bless her, she went to bed and she said, that was the best day of my life. Oh God, it sounds amazing. That just totally choked me up. That's so beautiful. Yeah, we put a rose crown on her head that her grandmother's made for her and, oh, it's so beautiful. Super lush, everyone adorned her in, gifts like a shawl and brooches and like those. And so she just looked amazing. But anyway, we'll say to her when she says, when can we have another one? You know, cause it's like, it's not like a birthday. You don't get it every year. The next one will be your first blood. And I like that you start the excitement. It's like, Oh, I get to do that again. You know, it's not like, whereas as part of my job recently, I was in a library. just talking to women. I had loads of books out willing to, ready to talk to anyone in town about periods. So if a mum came past with a young girl, it's like, do you want any free products? Do you want to talk about it? And the majority of the responses were no, it hasn't happened yet. And we were really hoping for another year before it does. And I was like, I get it. I get it. There's something about maybe more in the subconscious that's like, oh, we just want their childhood. But I think really the message that was coming through was, I don't want them to be burdened with this blood and this cycle, we just want them to like, oh god, they're gonna have to deal with that their whole life, sort of thing. But actually you can introduce something really, really different, a friend of mine, Kitty Maguire, she's amazing, she's got a great Instagram account, she's in Dublin. She tells this beautiful story about magic blood to young children, and she talks about how, She has magic blood and it means that she can create and it's the blood of the feminine and, she tells a beautiful story about her puppy that, comes on heat and she's explaining it to her kids, That's beautiful. It is, yeah, and it's just like, how can we bring this in? You're amazing. You are a creatrix. You are powerful and you're going to bleed and you're going to learn how to hold darkness and lightness and you're going to be fun and hilarious and out there and dark and deep and you can hold yourself and others and, it's going to be the first sign of that is going to be your blood and we're going to celebrate it. So yeah, just having that circle for her, even though that conversation around periods hasn't really fully landed yet. We've set the scene now and when that happens, we'll sit in a circle. Yeah, we'll sit and celebrate you. I mean, when I was a teenage girl, we were all desperate. I was one of the last in my year. I was the second to last in my year. And I know I was because we all talked about it. I desperately wanted to start my period. I was gutted that I was so late. And. really jealous of the girls that started earlier because obviously they also grew breasts and I was there looking like a little girl still when everyone else was starting to blossom and bloom and I was just like, Oh, well, why is it not happening to me? So I think actually it is something that girls, a lot of girls, I know not all girls do, but I think a lot of girls are really excited about it because you're getting close to womanhood and it means you're becoming a grown up and when you're a teenager, you Yeah, I think teenagers want to grow up, don't they? It's adults that want them to stay children, but the children want to grow up. That's why they want power tools and ovens and stuff. Even little kids want to pretend that they're adults, because it's a game. It's only when you become an adult that you realize it's rubbish. I don't want this kitchen anymore. Yeah, I don't want to cook it. Send it back. Yeah. I don't want to do the heathering. Yeah, you can do the heathering as well. But yeah, I think, something that I really love because I've got quite a short cycle in that it's 24, 25 days, so it's a little bit short. I always use you as an example. Oh, do you? It's like my mate has got such a short cycle and she's so creative. She's like a whirlwind because it just keeps going round. Well, yeah, because although I get a period every 24 days, I also get Ovulation every 24 days. Yeah. So I get more ovulations than people. And that's the flip of it. Cause it's so easy to think of the negative, but it's like, I'm a sexy beast way more often than everyone else. Yeah. Right. I'm well happy about that. And when do you started so many projects? Cause it's just that energy. Every two weeks. I'm like, right, come on. And, coming off the pill as well. So I can't remember, it was, it was a book about, it was a book about menstruation, but I can't remember which book it was. And it was saying how strippers in America earn the same amount of money all the time when they're on the pill, whereas strippers who aren't on the pill earn the same amount of money as women on the pill, except when they're ovulating, when they earn three times more. It's amazing. And when I came off the pill and once my hormones calmed down from the IVF, because we were, you know, we gave up on the IVF and then we were just an infertile couple, which is weird because I wasn't actually the one that was infertile. So I spent 13, 14 years living as an infertile person and then got married to someone else and now I'm a fertile person again and I have to avoid getting pregnant, which is really surreal. that's so surreal. Your life is weird. So it's such a weird journey to have gone through. And I've gone from being childless to child free because we don't want children. I don't want children now. So it's a different mindset, but yeah, that is so different. Yeah, it's so different. And, but I won't use the pill. I'm not, I don't, I'm not interested in taking synthetic hormones again. And. it's so obvious now when I'm ovulating and I didn't realize that it wasn't something that I'd ever been sensitive to or notice, but I can tell when I am, especially this was more in the UK, because that was when I started to notice was in the UK, that men half my age suddenly fancied me. Just for a couple of days a month, but for a couple of days a month, I was suddenly extremely attractive, even though I was now in my forties and it was, it was just so noticeable. It was like, Oh wow. And just things like, if I was going to get a bank loan, I'd ask or I'd wait till I was ovulating. I would make sure that I scheduled it for then. Sometimes I hear people talk about if I'm going to go and do a public speech, or I'm nervous about an interview, I've never heard someone say, when I go for a bank loan, I love that. Yeah, if you want to get a bank loan. And then also using the angry bit as well. So my wise woman, I now love. That bit, and I've really learned to enjoy it. And the first time I clocked how useful that was, I was in a Zumba lesson in Brighton and the door to the studio went straight onto a main road. And this guy had come in and was watching us dance, basically perving on us. And I turned around and I just walked towards him and I was in. Full PMT mode. I was absolutely there. Blood was like fire. And I took two or three steps towards him, looking at him and he backed out that kind of fury. And I'm not very good at conflicts and I don't like conflicting conversations. I'm not someone who's very comfortable at doing it. But if I'm in that phase, I can do it and I'm, and I'm, I'm fearless about it. So I also put difficult conversations into that week. So things where I want to like get something like a bank loan, I'll do when I'm ovulating and then difficult conversations where I've got to have a kind of conflicting conversation. I'll put it into the week after I ovulate. See, that's so interesting. I put my difficult conversations into a time when. I'm sort of, the best time for me would be like pre ovulation, not ovulation, because I lose my mind a bit, but pre ovulation or post, that's when I'm best at, being, assertive and kind and boundaries and straightforward and no bullshit. Yeah, yeah. But when I come to PMT, and just before I bleed, I'm so vulnerable to, a real deep insecurity. It can come out, it's there for me to throw the fire, but it can come out in an unskilled way. And it's something I've had to learn to just really hold myself with. And that's where I, I find, Like psychotherapy fascinating to bring into psycho work because we can pick it all apart. We can make sense of that. We can make sense of why you are feeling in your power in your inner autumn and why I'm feeling in my power in my inner summer. Yeah. I just, yeah. I love all of that stuff. For me, it's patience. I'm patient. In the pre ovulation, nothing really bothers me. I'm unbelievably forgiving. I'm unbelievably bending, basically nothing bothers me. So in that phase, I don't even notice it. That's something's bothering me. It's when I'm in the post ovulation phase that my patience is much thinner and the things that are not okay that I'm just generally ignoring, or not even, uh, I'm oblivious to Suddenly I can see them and I can't ignore them and they grate on me. And so I, I have to say something because if I waited until after I'd bled, they probably wouldn't bother me anymore again. So it's the only time that I would call them out. And does it linger with you? Like, do you carry your experiences from other phases into new ones? Do you sort of reflect on it and go, I was really supple and soft at that point. And actually I probably should have said, yeah, definitely. If something's bothered me and I didn't say it at the time and it's still there the next time I come round to it. then I also know that that means it is a thing that's the thing, not me, if you know what I mean. and I think as I've got older, I've got better at calling it anyway. I can tell what's my, what's my shit for want of a better word. what's my shit and what someone else's. When it's recognizable is like, okay, that's my stuff. yeah, you've just been short tempered, but things like housework, yes, I'm being short tempered about housework. And that's something that's come up before for me, but it's also because it's something I don't think is fair. I don't think it's fair that for some reason, and I'm not just, this is a sweeping statement, but for some reason, men don't see things that women see. And it's just because I think it's. I don't know whether it's biological or whether it's been groomed or, they've just got away with it or what it is, but they like being in these lovely clean spaces, but they just don't seem to notice when it's not clean, you're like, can you not even see that? and it's just, it's that sort of thing that I'll just suddenly not be okay about in that one week, much more likely to say something. In our relationship with Iris, Iris is like a complete anomaly. He's. I don't know where he came from. He's, he's an alien, but he, he is the most clean and tidy and not just clean and tidy, everything has to be in its order. And whenever I see the memes online, because what you're talking about, I think is the vast majority. Yes, absolutely. And I see all these memes online that are women saying that, and I'll just be like, that's how Aeris feels about living with me. That's so funny. It's only because he's so up there, but yeah. That's amazing. It is amazing. And, obviously everyone's different. Diz is so sensitive and, and if I say something to him, he instantly does something about it. it's not an argument or a fight. Yeah, he's receptive. Yeah. It's absolutely receptive and he's so gentle and thoughtful about things. it's a completely different situation to ones I've been in before, but. But he still doesn't see it, it's not on his radar and I find that amazing. If you enjoy this podcast, consider supporting me on Patreon. You can find me at patreon. com forward slash Jolie Rose. There's two tiers. So just for a few pounds, you can support the podcast, which I thoroughly appreciate. And it's like you've bought me a maybe like a cup of tea or something. And It means that I can create this work for people for free, for those who can't afford it, so you're being generous and kind. supporting those people who haven't got the money and supporting me as an artist. And then there's a higher tier, you also get the videos of the podcast. when I interview people, you get to see the interviews and there's other things I put on. Posts as well, like exclusive content that I post up there. So if you want to access that, then go on over to Patreon and support me. I will be extremely grateful I am doing a gig in Guernsey for those of you who live in the Channel Islands, the Kooky Club is starting up again, and I interview special secret guests every month. We have high tea, which is delicious, and we're always housed in beautiful venues. For this one coming up, which is on the 21st of November, it's in Candy Gardens, and it's going to be part of the at the Museum event. We're going to have a secret guest and we'll have high tea and I'll be interviewing someone it would be wonderful if you were able to come and join us. Thank you so much. And now on with the show. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. Okay. So. And stop. Okay. this one is Sorrow. Yeah, Sorrow. So this is Darkness and it's the sword, so it's the mind. the sword is the mind in terms of, the suit. three swords. at the top, there are two kind of sabers joining the long sword. So it's sorrow, three of swords, what does that feel to you, and even looking at the image? Sorrow, yeah, there's something quite beautiful about it, it's almost, like petals that it's going into. Yeah, it's like a flower, something quite delicate. the points are going into a flower, a kind of yellowy flower. Do you know Michael Meade? No. He's a storyteller. Oh, he'd rock your world. You should look him up. He's on Audible, and he's a storyteller, and he's just amazing. he talks about sorrow, and how it's different to sadness, and it really hit me. I was like, that's it. that is the difference it's not desperate. Sorrow is not desperate. It's not wanting for something to be different. It's not like, Oh, I need change and it's all broken sorrow is deep acceptance. it's like, Tears that just run into the river that run into the oceans that just keep flowing and I think real sorrow Is a wisdom that, is not separate from bliss and love and joy it's duality and non duality. I think there's something quite exquisite about sorrow. That's how I see that word. And when I heard you talk about it, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that about grief. So I feel like sorrow and grief are a kind of kindred. In a different way to sadness, like you say, because grief, there's another book that's beautiful called the wild edge of sorrow, which is on my bookshelf. Isn't it beautiful? What's the name of the author? do you know the book that I, what I can see was this one and that's your book. Oh, that's my book. Cause it's dark as well. Isn't it? That's really funny. I'll find it and put it in the notes. But yeah, it's such an amazing book. And in that he talks about how everyone with grief has a thread, this thread of grief, but when you follow the threads and then look up, it joins a cloth of grief that we're all part of and that it does connect all of us. It's a universal experience, which is just so beautiful Grief is like bleeding. It is an initiation into the reality really of, of life is death and that we're all going to experience it unless you're one of the first to die and you, you, you don't get to experience that, but you're going to be leaving that behind with the people that are there. And it's just, yeah. It's a. Beautiful and sorrowful part of life that we all have to experience. I think for me, grasping or creating a relationship with the concept of sorrow being something that flows is really how I meet my. the darkness of my inner winter, that point in my menstrual cycle, the depths of darkness. And just as I come to terms with it being something that flows inevitably, that can be exquisite, then to be with joy in the same way and to be with brightness and out there that it's, just got to give up the grasping of all the, the opposite side of it as well if you're going to not grasp the darkness, then not grasp the light in the same way, and let it flow and then just surrender to whatever is, I think that's when wellness can come in. Yeah, totally. It's balance, isn't it? Balance. it's the whole thing of like, you can't see the light until you've got the dark. you need both for, it's the dance and how beautiful that is. no one wants to watch a film or a TV series or read a book where it's all just happy clappy. I mean, it's nice if the occasional books like that, but you also sometimes want to read a really sad book and watch that sad film and cry. the mixture of both is beautiful. And when you've got a bit of both, that's when it's really tantalizing And that's why I love menstrual cycle awareness. Yes, exactly. Cycle. You get all of it. They're everywhere. Yeah, absolutely. right. We'll do one more card. a bit more menstruation. So this one is full fire. Look at those cards together. I mean, that literally looks like a menstrual cycle. That's really funny. Oh yeah. so with the Ace of Wands, the Ace of Wands means fire and passion and desire. this is fire is your, is your desire. It's the combustion engine inside you that makes you want to do things. And the Ace is the, I'd say the epitome of it, if you know what I mean, like it's the, the, the clearest, purest essence of that. Yeah. Which therefore, to me, the thing that's been coming up while you've been talking is you keep saying, working with menstrual cycles. I mean, that's the dream, isn't it? And, and it's that, that I'm like, what is the dream? Cause that's what I feel the Ace of Wands is, is what is the dream for you? When you talk about the dream being about being earthlings, I love that. And I think when I think about. The dream being teaching people about menstrual cycles and talking about cycles, not just menstrual cycles, all cycles, creative cycles and life cycles and cycles of integration and expansion. And that to me is a part of being Earthlings because it's, We have such an encyclical earth and it's something about, a connectedness to, to those cycles. I think that we're so resistant to cycles. if you look at how we grow foods and you look at how we, or we shine a light on womanhood at certain points, and then we don't want the other points to happen. The bits that are too old or too young, imagine if we surrendered to the cycles and not just surrendered, but. celebrated and brought them in. And I think that's a part of the dream. I think that's how, I think it's an essential part to us, living in harmony. It's something that I've been, I don't know, I did, my podcast came out this week. that was setting up this one for us to be talking, about the cycles. And I said, if you are a man, please listen to this one. I'm fascinated, I am fascinated about getting into the minds and understanding the experience of every type of person. at the moment I've been interviewing people that I know and that I'm linked to. And, I've had some friends who are. housewives or whatever going, well, what, I don't know what I would talk about. everyone who's been on your podcast is someone who's interestingly does things. And I'm like, well, yeah, but that's just cause they're obvious people to speak to initially. But I actually want to speak to everybody and I would love to speak to people who are totally outside of. the kind of reality that I'm used to and have been living in Brighton for, for 20 years, to interview them as well and to see what the cards pull up and what conversations come from that. Because it, I just am fascinated by everyone's parallel universes with completely different lived experiences. And that that is the biodiversity that we somehow for us to incorporate all of that for. The richness and the ideas and the sustainability of, our capacity to adapt and deal with anything the same as plants, the same as biodiversity in wildlife, in nature. If we monoculture everything, then we're doomed, and that's what happens with humanity is we monoculture ourselves. I think the most essential part about biodiversity is it's all connected. Every single aspect of it is part of the system. And if we can look at community like that, I think that, that's kind of been like epiphany shifts for me in terms of, okay, this is part of the dream. Like how we, like what you're saying, that we are all connected, that we don't, that we have a strength in us or, an excitement or a willingness and ability to not need to trap others out because we are all part of it in the same way like you talk about biodiversity and I think using that as a metaphor is really useful and a really helpful thing to do because you've got, I've got this image of somebody's garden, and you know you've got some people that garden with loads of chemicals and they're trying to make it perfect and exactly fit their vision. And, you know, put, you know, and I don't want to, I don't want to like, put people down too much that do their gardens that way you know like there's a paradox in all of this isn't there if I put down while trying to in the same conversation of trying to pull people together but there's something about that it's almost quite fascist it's like this is If you relate that to humanity, right? It's like, this is how I want it to look. This is how it should be. It's like, no, imagine if, imagine if everything was welcome. in that garden, in that wildness, in that madness. And the same with people. I know, but that's the problem with, because literally using that metaphor and what you just said is how do you have alongside each other in the same garden, Someone pouring chemicals and neatening everything up and someone who's letting it go over to wildflowers, who that person who's using the chemicals and neatening everything up thinks that this other person is being completely disrespectful and not looking after their garden. and it's spreading weeds everywhere. Cause that's literally happened to my friend. He's let their garden go wildflower and they live on an estate and everyone, all the neighbors are up in arms and upset with them because they're, you know, trashing everyone else's gardens by letting all these weeds spread. And it, how, how do you have those gardens together? Or is it that you can just have those gardens next? But like you say, because they're connected, you can't just have the gardens next to each other because the weeds and things will spread. They are connected. The chemicals will seep into the soil and, and affect the soil next door as well. I think partly it's because there's so many of us, right? Because there's so many of us, it makes it more difficult, and we've got ourselves into this situation and there is a part of me that trusts that this is all meant to be happening. And then there's another bit of me that's like, no, this is just what's happened. And actually with this many people and that many gardens next to each other trying to do the, you themselves to enjoy. the, the world the way they want it to be, we're two on top of each other and I don't, I don't know, part of me is like, well, yeah, but this is part of the dance and it's hilarious. And can we, can we find ways of forgiving and being kind to each other in that situation? And or is it even possible? I don't know. I don't know how that would work personally. Do you remember, do you remember on the walk when we were saying that community is an ongoing conversation about how to share space? Yes, exactly. That was you who said that. Yeah, I think it was in conversation in the first week or two and we were like, that is what it is. And I remember it kept coming up and we put it on some patches. And I think about that so much. It's, it is an ongoing conversation about how to share space. literally, I think, look up at the sky now, and there are, like, the space station has changed our sky. how dare them? even out there, we're trying to share space. But yeah, this kind of metaphor analogy of gardens is a good one. It's useful, isn't it? It can diffuse so much trick. It's the reality of the conversations that go on amongst us as humans, politically and a much more edgy and painful to talk about, isn't it phenomenal, for example, in America, Trump did go right over the line there, but what I find amazing about politics is it's often 51 49, you know, like Brexit in America. This isn't a small group of people, this is half the people are thinking something polar. I think that about all the time, that's so what yin and yang, so that's why part of me is like This is the way it's meant to be, because even the most ancient metaphor of yin yang and balance is about it being half and half. If we lived in a reality that was 60 40 or 70 30, it wouldn't be a dance. And also it means there'd be no conflict. So in fooling, there has to be conflict, well in all theater, but it's something we get taught in fooling. If there's no conflict, nothing happens. So there's no drama. But drama is what makes it. stuff happen. It's what moves things forward. The action is moved forward by the conflict. Yeah, it's the tension and that doesn't have to mean war. It's just some kind of tension. So in cycle work, that tension, it happens It's what you might refer to as PMS or PMT, premenstrual tension. That tension is the bit that is going to break into something new. It's the start of new beginnings and it's the opportunity for creativity. And the reason that I love, menstrual cycle stuff is because it is any, any cycle. So that tension happens in a creative cycle. It's that bit where you just go, what's the new thing that's going to come through? And if you can be with that tension and surrender to that tension and allow for it, it's amazing what comes through. But if you hold on and, and get anxious about it, then you're just going to keep repeating cycles or you're going to not be spacious and courageous to see what can come through. But it's scary to. Meet something new meet something what is new that newness can only come from the complete unknown Which is why I love fooling. I love that what you're talking about I'm calling because it's the practice of being in flow state with your inner world because That in a bit is the depths of the darkness, it's the, it's the ultimate creatrix and we don't know what is going to come out and if you can get into a practice of being interested and curious about what comes out, then we're more likely to create something new, you know, and feeding from the heart or, a place of wellness. Yin Yang philosophy and Daoism is, the art of dying. And the art of dying is learning to be comfortable with the unknown. And that's why I do this podcast. That's why it's called the Nonsense and the Chaos. for my, answer to the dream to some extent is for us all to relax with the unknown because. That's the relaxation of the fear of weirdness, of stuff that you've not encountered before, but it's also relaxing your control and trying to control things. And I realized that that's what money and power is all about. If all of those people like Elon Musk, he's on a mission to try and control the outer world and it's. Because I would hazard a guess that he's terrified of how out of control he actually is. And he can do all this stuff. He can move the stars and make these huge changes in the world around us in the politics and everything. But his partner might get hit by a bus tomorrow and he'd have to live with the consequences of that. He might have, suddenly be diagnosed with terminal cancer. He hasn't actually got control. And actually the delusion of control is the most dangerous thing there is. And relaxing with the unknown is the most, calming thing there is. And it, yeah, it doesn't matter how big your castle walls are or how far away you are from other people in your little islands in the middle of nowhere. I'm thinking of the Barclay brothers with their castle off of Sarg. They still fell out with each other. One of them died. The other one's getting sued by his wife, from a divorce settlement. you still can't control things. And. It's still going to happen. So you've got to learn to relax with it at some point. And if people did that, then they wouldn't be so desperate to accumulate wealth and, have that power to control their environment. You know, this thing of, always save a seat at the table for your enemy or, or not necessarily even your enemy, but somebody who believes and thinks uncomfortable things, that came up at the pilgrimage, didn't it? That was, someone said that to us at the pilgrimage. Yeah, it was a storyteller. Yes. I remember, we were sitting around in there. Yeah, Scotland. Yeah, he was an amazing storyteller and I can't even remember the story, I just remember the punchline, which was basically always save a seat at the table for, I think he said for your enemy. But in my mind, the way I remember it and the way I hold it is basically just the opposition And I think when we talk about the dream, what is the dream? There is something to do with, for me being okay with your, not just okay with your inner world, but practicing it. Like I've just been saying, and that is where I want the strength to be from. I don't, I want to live in a world that isn't fearful of somebody who disagrees with me. And I want to go to an edge. With that, you know, we, we might conjure up some appalling sentiments that people hold like I cannot be in the same room with that I cannot, but I want to go to the edge of what's possible with that I want to. sit with people at a table who, who vote completely differently to me and think completely differently to me because my safety isn't from them and from the outer world like you're talking about with Elon Musk. It's in my inner world where my safety and my core and my strength is and I want to see kids like that, teenagers like that. I want to see my elders moving from a place of security from there in the world. And I think we've all gone a little bit outer world. And I think that's because of capitalism. There's nothing, this is, the thing about cycle work is it's all about ascent and descent. And the only two things that have ascent without descent is capitalism and cancer. It just grows and grows and grows. It's like, where are we going with this? And I think we're being so pulled out of ourselves. We're like living in this kind of yang energy, feeling great deals of shame if we're not productive and out there. And if we can just come back into ourselves and find a sense of empowerment, like you say, with Yin and Yang, with that balance, then that's the dream. That's the answer to the question. Yay! That's the dream. Brilliant. Work with your cycles, be it your mental cycles, your moon cycles, your creative cycles. Yeah, it's all the cycles, moon cycles. Thank you, that was spot on. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. The last thing for you before you go is the chaos crusade. Is there something you can think of that will just flip the script a little bit? Explain it to me again, so what would it take to flip the switch? if you were to imagine we were in the matrix, like doing something that just tricks it, and suddenly you're doing something different to what you would normally do to put yourself out of just. Plodding along. I feel like following cycles is partly that that's why I do ceremonies because it means that every two weeks I stop I describe it as grammar because otherwise life is just this never ending sentence But through marking the dark moon and marking the full moon and marking my bleed days with a red tent day, it means that I stop and take stock. So with my bleed day with a red tent. It's less intention setting or anything. It's more that I just let myself die and it's embracing that darkness and that space. With the dark moon and the full moon, it's following the journey of the astrological chart, which for me, it's not about whether you believe in it or not. I just think that if you follow the chart all the way around, then every year you've considered every aspect of your humanity and you've looked at it and they reflect the season. they reflect the season you're in. And like we say, they're never the same. So it is a spiral. each season's different. You're in a different place. You've learned things, you've learned more about that aspect of yourself. So, for me, yeah, the stopping and doing the ceremonies as a way of breaking the matrix. But is there anything that you would like to suggest for people to do? Similar to you, it's ceremony, but around initiatory points, it's a point in your life that changes, whether it's. feeling light or feeling heavy, it's a point where we can get together and witness one another and go, you've done that. You've got something now to integrate. That will shift reality, I think, because people will be unapologetic, stepping into their power and recognizing themselves as, a voice of authority or a pointer, somebody to check in with about that subject. that's going to empower our young people to, know who they are and what they're bringing instead of mindlessly going through life in a sleepy state, going into jobs that they're told to go into. They're going to find their place. They're wild powers that they're just bringing to this world, you know, and 100 percent that I've actually seen that change everything for myself. Me and my sister in law used to have quite a difficult relationship. And then for her 30th, I did an initiation ceremony for her. And we all talked about who she'd been as a youngster. she'd been really young when she got together with my brother. we had actually watched her grow up It had been difficult because she was with a bunch of like 30 year olds and she was, you know, 17, 18 basically growing up amongst us she turned 30 and soon after became a mother, we did a really beautiful ceremony for her and she cried her eyes out It was the first time that she realized that we actually did like her and that she was our friend, and it completely changed our relationship. and I got my brother back because it had been a real block between me and my brother. So it was a really important thing. So I fully support that as a suggestion. I think people don't realize how powerful it can be. I want to do one for my mum. I'm gonna offer one to her and just be like, stepping into your wise woman years I think with Mother's Day, with birthdays, there's this kind of cute, like, here's some flowers, or we love you, or you're so special to us, but I want to do something powerful that's like, You're my mother. you're the most amazing woman I've ever had the privilege of knowing and the amount that you can hold and your wisdom and your love and your heart. I want to do something that is, and that's what ceremony is. It's not a cute, fluffy little thing. It's like straight to it. This is what I see in you. I want to be surrounded by women that know where their power is because We're all telling them. Yes. Amazing. We've seen you. I love you Heather. You're wonderful. I love you too, Jodie. Thank you so much for having me on. It's a pleasure. That was the incredible Heather Sanderson, and it was such a delight to chat with her. I really enjoyed that conversation. I hope you, especially if you're male, I hope you stuck around and did listen to the whole thing. And just for everyone, it's the curiosity of, other people's realities that is the driving force behind this podcast. And yeah, like I said in the introduction, if someone was to say to me, what do you think the answer is? How do you think we will be able to thrive and survive and win out over evil in the future? And my answer would be for us to be curious about Diversity really, but also that we are Gaia, I very much do believe in Gaia and so we are this one living organism. Now that is my perspective and obviously there are seats at my table for those who don't believe that, who don't think that, but yeah, it is difficult because As, as a Gaia person, I say we're all one and therefore have seats at my table for people who don't have the same perspective as me, because I am interested in biodiversity and I think that will make us stronger. But obviously, if that's not what you believe in, then you're not going to be meeting me on that level. it was like a friend of mine, once he's gay, I said to him, Him because I'm bi sexual and I said to him like I just don't understand gay people any more than I don't understand heterosexual people why limit yourself people are sexy. They're sexy. Just I just fancy. Yeah anyone anyone Yeah, but you would think that cuz you're bisexual And yeah, I think that's the same with My, my view that we should all sit at the table together and be interested and curious in each other's realities, but then that's because I believe in Gaia and that we're all one. our consciousness is one and that we are just one living organism that are completely reliant on each other. I'm there in my head going, but that's because that's what it is. But then at the same time, if that's not your reality, then that's not your reality. So I don't know. I don't know. I want to keep exploring. I would like to try and interview people that don't think the same way as me as much as possible. and I will endeavor to do so. I'll see if there's anyone I can think of that I could chat with and talk to them about. How they see reality and see if we can explore this further. I feel like it feels like it's working in the right direction. That's what it feels like to me. But I would say that because I believe in God. Anyway, onwards and upwards, we can only do what we can do. And this is my way of putting my best foot forward. So thank you so much for being here and I'll see you again next week. See the inn on. Yeah. Please subscribe! I don't know.