#14 Getting deliciously meta: Anne Clarke’s daughter Niki & how we’ve changed each other’s lives

Trigger warning: This episode does discuss rape

In this episode I have the immense pleasure of talking to Niki, a kind and generous woman who I’ve only met three times, but has had such an impact on my life. I’ll be forever grateful to how open and trusting Niki has been, allowing me to delve into her innermost world and create art from the inspiration I gleaned there, celebrating the ripples that ordinary people leave behind and finding the magic in the mundane. 

In the words of Kae Tempest, we are all ‘Modern Ancients’.

If you missed last week’s podcast then listen to that one first, or this one might not make much sense. 

I mention I’m running a residential immersion weekend in Sark for Samhain and you can find out more information about this through social media. You can get in touch with me on Instagram @kriyaarts or the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook. 

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com

Please like, follow, and review. Also, please consider supporting the podcast by becoming a patron on my Patreon page... patreon.com/JolieRose. And share far and wide please! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Huge love to you all and I hope you enjoy listening to this week's episode!

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com You can get in touch with me on Instagram @kriyaarts or the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook

Please like, follow, and review. Also, please consider supporting the podcast by becoming a patron on my Patreon page... patreon.com/JolieRose. And share far and wide please! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Transcript

0:04

The mountains and the caves. Wicked witches. Crusting the unknown. Uh, Uh, Yeah. Welcome to the nonsense in the chaos. I'm your host, JD res. This week is special. It's always special, but Les was one of the most incredible conversations I've ever had. With the daughter, Nikki of Ann Clark, who I introduced you to last week. I've only met Nikki three times in my life, which I talk about in the podcast with her. And I'm just so honored that she's let me into her life and, you know, we're discussing the most intimate. Realm of Nikki's existence. And the fact that she's let me do that. And. Celebrated and enjoyed and allowed. Me to create work about her life and about her mother and. Yeah, it's just so generous of her. It's such a lovely conversation. It's just, it's bizarre and magical that this is happened and was able to happen. I really love getting to ask her questions. It's it is like a private investigator experience. And I investigated her life and she's let me, and she's been up for it. So huge. Thank you to Nikki. And I I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation. The sound quality's not great. We had a technical difficulty where she couldn't use the program that I normally use. And so we had to use zoom. And I love zoom. I think it's brilliant, but it's not very good for recording podcasts on because when one of you speaks, the other one cuts out. So hopefully I've managed to edit it. So it's still pleasurable to decency and conveys how amazing the conversation was. So I hope you enjoy and I'll see you on the other side. Okay, so, You're Nikki. Hello. Absolutely a pleasure to welcome you to the Nonsense and the Chaos. We met in 2016, I think it was, wasn't it? Yeah. and we met in a cafe which doesn't exist anymore, but it was an old theatre space that then Right, yeah, yeah. The first time I went in that building, it was a squat and uh, and it was empty for ages and then they turned it into the theater and cafe. can't remember what it was called, but I really liked it. and I gave you back your birth certificate and your, you did? Yeah. It. What had you done before then? Did you not need a birth certificate Oh, I saw, I said I got a copy of one because I'd found all these belongings because I had squashed a house that you'd grown up in, that you'd lived in with your mom. And that's wrong. It. And you, I think are the person who told us actually about the squat, didn't you? Through Freddy Yeah. Yeah. Did you work with him? That's right. Yes. And I knew that he would be responsible as a squatter. Because my sort of stepfather was an anarchist at one point, and whatever. And he had squatted, I don't know if you knew, Wickham Terrace. and they had squatted there because they were going to be knocked down. And so they got in there as builders who were signing on and did the place up and moved people down from Gypsy Hill in London. Because they were, people that were going to be evicted from, slums in London. But would have been put into tower blocks or things like that. So they moved for a while into Wickingham Terrace. And then of course developers got very excited and did things to it. They are really fantastic. They are absolutely, you know, they're my fantasy buildings. Yeah, totally. In Brighton, that's the place you want them. They look like they could be on the side of Buckingham Palace or something. Like they're really fantastic, And at one point they housed, women of disrepute. Did you know that? That's right. Yes. Right next to, an establishment for, artillery men, whatever, Amazing place. And that was what was great, was when, so first of all, I discovered the house that you'd grown up in and all your mum's belongings. And then I then created a walking tour where I showed people around Brighton and that's when I discovered things like, Wickenham. Wickenham Terrace. Yeah. and the word I used for this, uh, which I've mentioned in a previous podcast, is Pal Est, and Yeah. I feel like we're pal est of towns and cities because we remember what they looked like before that shopping thing was built or when that Yeah. Needs to be there. And this, the house that I squatted was called. Farmyard, was in Farmyard, which, did you ever question about the name or know anything about the reason why it was called Farmyard? It was some sort of farmyard once upon a time. And yeah, that seems a little bit odd, but it was probably more of a small building. Because if you look on a map, there's a road that runs, you know how through the, the south lanes, there is actually a road that, that that road would have carried on, so you can see how it got Rocked off, at some point he got chopped up. Mm hmm. I stopped I guess with West Street But yeah, it's it's a magical little road because no one notices it and so yeah Yeah, you were going through this sort of weird little alleyway to get to your house Mm hmm Yeah. Because it's got the back end of lots of shops and cafes and things. And I don't think you'd be, well, no, people are living there now, because I was going to say about fire escapes, because there isn't any way of getting out of there, is there, if there was a fire? No. No. It's above a shop. Absolutely. And so normally, from what I could gather when we were looking into it from the squatting perspective, is that commercial properties tend not to then rent out. The space above. because commercial leases, if they miss one month's rent, you can chuck them out. Whereas if you have a residential lease, obviously you, I think you have to give like two or three months but from what I saw, and I don't know whether you would have known this because you were young, but the paperwork that I found Your mum had an amazingly good tenement agreement. where. Yes, it was. So I can see why your mum didn't end up squatting because she had such a good deal. Yeah. The rent was really cheap. I mean, I could tell even from, well, I could tell because they were trying to fight her. So absolutely But I did wonder, I mean this is maybe getting a bit deep, straight away, but my feeling from having explored it all and the whole story is that actually, and, and actually it's a reflection on my own life and story, is I was living with someone who had a drinking problem and we moved out of town and it had a. Significant improvement effect on the person I was living with. Because it was harder for them to get to the pub, and they were also lazy. And it just meant that the party wasn't always coming back to our house. And I did wonder whether the house being so well situated, and right in the middle of everything, and right next to all the pubs, was part of the reason why it was always the party house in the place that everyone went back to. Yeah, yeah, no, no, that's very true. And sort of, you know, welcomed as a party house and somewhere you could safely take drugs without neighbors. There are no neighbors there. And, though traditionally there'd been a police box over at the clock tower. police weren't actually that interested because Queen Square that was nearby, had quite a few sort of drinking clubs and there was sort of licensed premises without being licensed. Right, okay. And so I think the police just kept a bit of an eye on them and Whatever. And something so close, so they're probably just looking the other direction. Yeah. So does that sort of seem right to you and possibly the house? Because it was also quite a weird energy in there. I felt from that road going from London, you know, from the train station, from London and then just flowing down. Passed into the sea. I almost felt like we were sat on a bum cheek, mean, it was a weird sort of atmosphere. It was somewhere where lots was happening, but it felt very isolated from the rest of the world. Yeah. Yeah. And, certainly whilst I was living there, there was a sort of death. A guy, nasty road accident. Where was he? Vehicle ran into the shop below us and the guy was instantly killed. So, that was just below the living room area and yeah, it was, it was just so weird because it's such a busy junction, but no one's ever looking up. That was one of the major things, hours watching people out the window, it's be looking down and no one looking up then, yeah, it's not somewhere where people stop. It's where people are moving through the whole time. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. it was almost like you're in a nest, like a bird, in a nest. Also, it was so beautiful inside, like what an amazing It was a huge amount of space. Yeah. And you don't really get that design. like a cowboy saloon, you know, it had a really unusual layout and sort of American feeling for some reason. And the pain, I mean, for us, because, but, but, and then that was the other thing is that, did your mom, I think she passed away in 1998. Is that right? Yeah. I think that would have been then. Yes. Yes. It would have been. Back to squat in 2002, which actually is only four years later. Yeah. Right. Decades. I apologize. I'm sorry. Feel of everything. And I, I'm guessing that that is because life kind of disappeared after a certain point when the alcohol had taken over that she Yeah. Yeah. I mean, once, all day licensing hours came in, that was what she did. Yeah. Before then, there'd been some sort of stop on it because you had You know, pubs closed, from two till six and whatever, but instead it then went on to, you know, you could drink all day, you know. Yeah. And it was more culturally acceptable, wasn't it? But obviously she flipped into kind of a, cause I mean, I'm living somewhere now where it's very drinky, Because in islands there's nothing to do. And we still have that social community thing of hanging out in the pub. It is, alcohol is, I would say, without a doubt, the most dangerous of all the drugs. And, coming from Brighton, where obviously there's a bit more of an array of drugs, people look a lot older here than they do in Brighton. compared to my mates, I don't look young. is a really dangerous one. And I did feel like learning about Anne's story and, especially cause I didn't have children. It felt like it did put the brakes on for me. Like she taught me to, to check that, so I feel like that's why I referred to her as a guardian angel because I feel like I've learned from her story. to take better care of myself and it's kind of why I did the pilgrimages as well because I felt like if I'm not having children, what, what's the thing that I'm going to do that's going to make me, be more interested in being physically healthy rather than just going about life because yeah, it's great if you haven't got kids to just have fun. But at the same time, that comes at a price when you're still doing it 20, 30 years later yeah, like a 20 year old, which was part of the thing with Anne, wasn't it? You once said to me, which was quite a powerful thing to say is that you thought she shouldn't have had children. She shouldn't have done no. And she did what was the. expected thing at that time, and I think then regretted it. Yeah. You know, she grew up in a small village, she was from a good middle class family with a highly respect, you know, highly respected parents and part of the community. She was also the beautiful, intelligent one, and I think a lot was, possibly expected of her, went along with it, and then decided. Actually, that really, you know, I've now found something I want to do and that's not compatible with family life. Yeah. Absolutely. And it was such an amazing time and it does feel like, there were so many things that she was involved in that but paved the way for, for people who now live in Brighton to exist there, for the women to be there, for being able to be sexually liberated. Love whoever you want and it doesn't matter about the gender and, and all of the stuff that she was kind of right at the fore, shifting that, you know, so. Yeah. Feels like she paved the way, but, and we, so I have it within my own friendship group where there are people that become and are becoming casualties. Luckily, the person that I actually thought I was going to lose has recovered and has pulled themselves back, which is amazing. Fantastic. But we have lost two people along the way, one not, one was just circumstance, but one person was from alcohol. And it is alcohol. that's the thing that seems to be the most, clinging. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. Let's pull three cards I just, I'm very excited to be doing this with you and I'm really, thank you so much for, for doing it and for supporting this whole journey because I wouldn't have done the plane. I wouldn't have done any of this if you hadn't been happy for me to do it. So, oh no, I'm. I'm delighted to have you in my life. You've changed it How has it changed your life? Because it has taken something I thought I knew, which was my relationship with my mother, and shown me a whole other aspect in a way, someone I didn't know, but someone who I can now see other things in that I didn't know before. And that's quite an exciting thought, isn't it? That. What you think is so set in stone and so true and whatever, it's not that it's wrong. There's just another aspect to it. And if you then take that into the rest of life and think, well, there's another aspect, there's another way of seeing things. How exciting is that? It makes me so happy. Literally. I'm But you've done that with your own life. You've Yeah, totally. Your legacy has not been to reproduce, to have children. It is to do other things that make a mark on the world and change the world. And so your legacy of pilgrimages and creations were a fantastic legacy. You know, that, that's as good as sort of having children. It's, you know, as valid. yeah. And it's like, yeah, but all that love that you would put into a child, I've got, you know, somewhere, I need to put it somewhere. So how much, you would give, that's how much I'm going to give out by doing things. it's wonderful that you just said that because part of the thing that we've, what we've thrown it is how we carry masks around and we have the we have the mask of partner and person that we. Adore people that we're jealous of, the bad fairy and fought to realize that they're all us because actually we're all one. And so yes, you have the mask of mother, but someone else sees that same person as the lover or one who got away or the best friend and And actually, you take all those masks off that all those people are putting on them and there's a whole other thing in there as well, which is them. Yeah, it's a big journey to bring it all back to yourself and to go, okay, actually, that's, that's kind of me. Like, that's my version of this person. And, and they're me anyway, you know, it's, it's a twin. I, I liken it to being a, like a being with lots of fingers with finger puppets. And it sits there entertaining itself with this sort of east enders play that it's like and every now and then it catches itself and it's like, oh, and that's the fool, And then it just goes back to it again. But, We're just playing this game and exploring the world and life and the feelings, having feelings, you know, being able to actually have this physical experience We're exploring it with this little drama that we're creating for ourselves. What are you doing here? Sorry, I will hold up the cards. You tell me when to stop and I'll pull the card out. Okay, stop. Ooh, this one is the Magus. So this is number one in the tarot deck. Number zero is the Fool. So this is like the top, but then beyond this is the Fool, and the Fool is everything, nothing. It's like childlike innocence. The Magus, like the magician, I think of him like Gandalf. All knowing, someone who's just fully understood the physical world and is fully accomplished in the physical world and, which is the known. So it's full accomplishment of the known and then beyond that's the unknown, which is the full. so what does that mean to you? Does that mean anything to you in particular? And it's Mercury as well. it doesn't. If you asked me to choose a card from the deck and I'm not familiar with them, that's one I wouldn't be drawn to. Yeah. Why not? It's masculine. It's, possibly mercurial. Um, none of those are things that I relate to. Right. Could be that I need to. I'd say it's very masculine. It is. It's very Gandalf y. how has your upbringing affected your relationship with patriarchy and authority and that kind of world? Oh, that's a big question to which I haven't really got a terribly easy answer. Pointing us in the direction of squatting and things like that. Yes, yeah, I'm the mother to two sons who are fabulous. They're not particularly masculine people. My father was very much in the periphery, the father to my children disappeared fairly early on, but the reality is my mother's long term partner, who you know about from the sort of whatever, is probably, probably the man who I had most to deal with, most most knowledge and most time with. You on with Eddie? I didn't not get on with him. Yeah. Uh, no, I see him as an important part of my life. But the reality is he was, and still is, 11 years older than me. You can't be a parent to a child you're 11 years older than and also at the time he came into my mother's life he was a teenager. Yeah. so yes, it's a, it's an odd, odd one. he was never encouraged to think of me as a sort of daughter and whatever and I never accepted him as any sort of father. Ha, ha, ha. I've got a picture if you want to see one. Let's see. That'll be great. I'm not quite sure how well you can see that. Wow. I mean, he looks grown up there. That must mean he's a bit older. not that old. I would have said probably in his 20s because I think he was about 16 at the oldest, 18 when he came to live with it. So yeah. that's him. And are you still in touch now? Are you still connected now? Uh, loosely. Uh, and I want to get in touch because I found some, some things that I want to pass on to him and whatever. I want to talk to him about. I think he sort of doesn't know quite how to go about it but yeah, it would be lovely to get back in touch. How alive for? It was quite a long time, wasn't it? Yeah, it has to be, it has to have been at least ten years, probably nearer twelve, I think he and my mother split up when I was 17, and he'd been about since I was probably six. And that is a big enough, because it's obviously six and a teenager, 16, 17, whatever age it was. Mm hmm. That does seem like an adult ish to you at six, Yeah. Yeah. Because that's the sort of role. Yeah, and they're being presented in that way. Yeah, yeah. It's not something I really thought about until much, much later, because I think your childhood is always sort of normal to you or it's what you know. Later you can go back and think, oh my goodness, Yeah. That was not like other people or that was odd, or Yeah. Yes. Completely. And your brother, I hope you don't mind me mentioning family. No, not at all. I mean, he's gone in a very different direction to you, hasn't he? has, yes. I mean, he is a very wealthy, successful man. He's a businessman and, he's got two fabulous, know, not that I know them, but two very successful children and our lives are very, very different, you know. It was interesting because I recognized the dynamic because the age gap between you and your brother is the same as me and my younger brother, and my parents well they were 21 when, they both were 21 when they had me, whereas your dad was a bit older wasn't he? Yeah, yeah. I think it must have been about 25? Yes. Yeah, that sounds right. yeah. So it just felt like the family age group and dynamic. I recognised because that's the thing, and my brother's really successful as well. He's definitely got the naughty, you know, he's got the naughty side to him as well. But he is, everyone thinks he's older than me. He appeared to put us in a room together. yeah, he's definitely the one that went more for the success and money route. Yes, yeah, yeah, I mean my brother did and has been, has got plenty of both. But we're not, I don't think we look alike, we certainly don't sound alike. Yeah. Yeah, he's got a much more working class accent. Oh, yeah. And an attitude. Oh, yes. Yes. he's got a more pronounced, brightened accent than me. He's very much I think there will be He may well end up paying for private education for his grandchildren. Whereas, You know, with his own children, he was never going to do that. It wasn't particularly wealthy. It might have been possible, but he was no. You know, I went to a rough school in Brighton. I'm really successful. My children can go to a state school. That's cool though. That's good. You've been working more in, like, you're at the university with the NUS, is that right? Working in I was, yeah. I've now trained as a teaching assistant, but yeah, I've always been in education, which I love. Yeah. It's good. Bundled up in healthcare, is that right? Are they in education or are they in, you know Well, one son works as a manager on, The other is a teacher specializing in, PHSC and pastoral care. It just feels like you can see the social, consciousness that Anne had. you were brought up around people that were socially conscious Yeah. that matters a lot to me. This is the end of the video. If you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting me. As a patron. So you can go to patrion.com forward slash Jody res. I follow a couple of podcasters who I'm. I get endorphin hits every time I see that there's a new one being released and it makes me so happy and I support them on Patrion. And it's a pleasure to dare out on. I'm grateful to them for putting the work in and for. Making something that I enjoy consuming so much and learn from, and, you know, I love them. Another thing you can do if you haven't gotten the money to support is to share. Far and wide on your social media about the podcast. Also to rate it and leave a review. No, one's left a review yet. And it would be re. It was so. It would be so nice to read reviews and hear what people think. And it just means that we appear up in the algorithms were recommended more by. You know, different podcasts providers, and it means that people will find me and find this work. And. And if you enjoy this, then hopefully other people will as well. So chef far and wide doesn't matter if you can't afford to support, but if you are able to, it just helps keep this work independent and. Yeah. I really appreciate it. And I know how much I enjoy and appreciate giving money to. Those that I love, and it feels like a. Yeah, two way street. And I just also want to remind you that we have a Wayne immersion taking place in SOC. The first weekend in November. this is a collaboration that I'm doing with the chillin. really cozy, gorgeous space and salt, where we have lovely fireplace and it's got big crystals everywhere, and it's really cozy and just such a lovely atmosphere run by a beautiful woman called Helen. And we will be staying there together and going off on our adventures around this paradise island. Exploring and foraging and collecting stones to make her runes with. And then coming back to this beautiful warm space to. Be cozy in nesting. And pampering. So if that appeals to you and you want to connect with this. Beautiful transition season this moment in time where we can mulch and digest all that's happened in the summer and prepare ourselves for going in winds for some creation hibernation over the winter months. Then give me a shout and I'll send you some more details and you can do that through my social media. Thank you. And on with the show. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. point and you tell me when to stop. Stop now. Lovely. Ooh. So, this one is a good card. This is the It's a chariot where he's all dressed in gold, so he looks great, but his horses are statues, so it's a bit like being all dressed up, but it's not, it's kind of for show, if you know what I mean, like it's like, yeah, for being, being stuck behind these statues. so what does that mean to you? Does that mean anything to you? That again is absolutely one I wouldn't have chosen. Another male one, another quite showy. yeah, so that's quite interesting. You know, picking out things I wouldn't have done. Yeah. What it, yeah, it's that kind of ambitious, suppose, what that brings up for me thinking about your story and you guys is about Anne, I felt like Anne would have loved to have been an artist And then. Was, you know, stopped by the things that were expected and her working and all that kind of thing. what was that like, growing up, how were you aware of it? she was very artistic and creative, she was a darling of the art college when she was young, Hornsea School of Art, you know, absolutely loved her. I don't know what held her back. She went, she did go do some art college training then. Yes, yeah. She went to art college, After leaving school and was successful and I don't really, well I suspect marriage possibly sort of stopped her there. Your dad was creative wasn't he? He was. He was and he wrote poetry and did a lot of painting. I suspect he wasn't as good as her. He thought more of his talent and I think, being a man he made more time to To do these things, and whatever, it fitted better in with, sort of, like the Certainly men then, and perhaps men more now, in that if I think about couples I know and men I know, men quite often have quite distinct hobbies and pastimes. You know, there'll be someone who goes off and plays in a band a couple of times a week, or has got a really expensive motorbike or stuff like this, whereas women tend to have hobbies that sort of, they can pick up during life, particularly around family life. You know, sort of, they may have children, so they fit in a bit of painting or a bit of sewing or something like this, and they don't have a special space, either in their life or in, The building then home. I actually found that, as someone who is creative and actually have, I mean, I've chilled out a lot, but I was extremely ambitious when I was younger and was absolutely aiming for stardom and, you know, that was my intention. thought, I thought that was what was happening. And, whenever I, and so I was very drawn to creative ambitious men, but, hmm. I've ever been in a relationship with someone who was like that. I always felt like the mistress. They had their love, and it was their their ambition. And I You know, thing on the, like, their, their other thing in their life. And I was with someone whose parents were both successful. He actually wasn't creative. He was, he was a barrister, so he was really successful. And I could just see that she and her amazing talent and her amazing creativity were completely sidelined and I could feel the dynamic starting to develop between me and the partner. And I just feel like I'm not. I don't want to be second fiddle. So I've not been with people that are like that since, you know, I've always been with people who are actually really happy to be wherever they are and kind of doing their thing. They're a base that I come back to. So I go off and do my things And that's worked better. But yeah, I do think that. That's something that's easier to do in this day and age, I can completely see how we've fought for that, you know, that kind of freedom. Mm. Mm. Like being from a broken family as a child, because I grew up in a broken family, but it was a lot more normal, I think, Whereas it would have been quite unusual, when you were younger. It was, and it's something, you know, I didn't talk about to other people, but now I look back and think, yeah, I can think of quite a number of school friends whose parents were in unutterably miserable marriages. And also, if you think about it, it was only around the mid seventies, it became easier to get a divorce. I remember it happening. I remember it as a child happening, yeah. And somewhere along the line, we've lost the term divorcee. No one's called a divorcee these days, but when I was young, they were. Yeah. Yeah. There was so much stigma. I Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm a divorcee, But yeah, it's just, yeah, I didn't, I didn't feel any stigma at all, and I just moved on and, really easy. But we didn't have children, so we didn't, and we also didn't, we had no assets, so it was quite an easy break. But, I'm so glad that it has been made that easy because you're right, there are so many people, I mean, I felt it myself just because of having made that commitment that was, that was extra to just being a boyfriend and money we spent on it. I felt obliged to try and stick it out. Because of that, but to have also had the pressure of everyone's going to judge you and you know, everyone's going to come down on you, or you might even, You had to sort of prove that you had to get private investigators involved Yeah. And the amount of people that must be living extremely miserable lives is harsh. Yeah. I'm glad that it has got easier. but it is hard being from a broken family. It was hard as a child, having it ripped apart. Someone told me that it's a shamanic journey because the shaman, the idea of a shaman is that you have a near death experience, which is, you know, when people nearly die, they sort of are looking at the world afterwards and children from broken families have the same thing because your reality is completely sunder. But you are still here and you're still alive and say, Oh, you know, I've survived this. Yeah. I can kind of do anything. And I did sort of feel that like I definitely found my own. integrity and freedom and my parents became humans, they stopped being these god like creatures and It was kind of good. But yeah, what was like if you were to describe your childhood, what would you describe it as? the kindest way to put it would be free range Wha? There weren't any rules. No one really knew what I was doing and whatever. I did my own thing. Didn't really come to any harm. Distinct lack of guidance or security or whatever, but yeah, free range I think is the most accurate way of describing it. And how old were you when you left home? Eighteen, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I left home at 15 actually. I left home, well engaged at 15 and moved in with my fiancé who was 17. Uh, uh, uh, Which felt a lot able, his parents were together and then I moved to Australia, when I was 18, was like, get me as far away from Essex and that even blows my mind now because 18 year old seems so young, you know? Well, yeah. But you weren't bringing up your sons, like, did you? Because that brings up a lot of stuff about parenting, doesn't it? Yeah. I think it's that thing of going, hang on a minute, I wouldn't do this to my child, so why did that happen to me? And that kind of Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I found parenthood certainly first off quite frightening, and, uh, I think prepared for it, but I thoroughly enjoyed it as well. It was good fun and having done it young, I didn't feel as if I was giving up anything for it. in many ways. And certainly at the time I thought, oh my goodness, it must be a lot more difficult to do this when you're in your thirties or whatever. You're giving up a lifestyle and a career and lots of things to at 21, you've got nothing to lose. And 40 is still so young now, cause obviously I was from the generation where we were told to wait because we were the first generation that could and, and the amount of emotional turmoil I've seen that create from infertility and, giving things up. I think, I think people, in their early thirties really struggle. It's, it's really difficult cause you have got that. You're used to having a life that you live, that you've carved out. But yeah, it's the infertility side of it more than anything. It's just so, it's so much harder. I think, my advice, if I was to have someone ask me about it, I would definitely say do it younger. we've been doing it biologically. Evolutionary wise that way for eons and like we've literally only just stopped doing it and it doesn't seem to be working that well so. No, I think yeah. you know you've got lifetimes afterwards it's not a problem. Yeah, I was really happy when I met my new partner that he doesn't want children but you know, you are absolutely in a, you don't have to have children to have a rich and meaningful life. Absolutely. And I'm sort of my, you know, brought both my sons up to believe that and whatever, and, yeah, because you. There are so many things you can give to the world and do for the world that don't involve producing more people. E for the world is not produce more people. Yeah, there's there's They're not doing it. And that I feel has shifted in my lifetime, like from in my, in my early thirties being asked all the time, are you going to have children? Do you have children? that's shifted. And I don't know if it's just because I've got older, but I don't feel like it is because I look quite young for my age. So I think that's socially shifted as well. And that is less of a be all and end all. I think that has, that pressure has been lifted somewhat. Mm. Yeah. Let's do the last card then. That's okay. You can get one that you feel more drawn to. Just stop there. Oh, well, there you go. Perfect. It's the priestess. Well, you've picked three. Oh, lovely. I'm redressing that masculine glimpse I seem to have gone for. Uh, uh, She's just, she's just amazing. beautiful. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That, that looks much more something I can relate purely because, you know, she's female. And so you were of being like at the forefront of, you were being brought up a feminist, I'm assuming, and we're at the kind of beginnings of that. I mean, I know it was around in the twenties as well, but like, that's quite a big moment. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I can. I became interested in sort of things like the anti Nazi league and that type of thing. Rock Against Racism, at a sort of younger, at the age of about 15, 16. Then, I can remember becoming a feminist because when I used to work at ETAM, it was my first job, after leaving school. And my manager used to read the Daily Express, and she left it down the staff room. And I read this horrible, horrible, um, account of this young woman who'd been raped, and she'd been so badly damaged that she'd been ripped apart, and the man was wearing lots of rings or whatever. But the judge said that I'm not going to send him to prison because he's, uh, an army officer, and it would ruin his career. And I just thought, no. There's something wrong with the world. I hadn't been, had it presented to me till then, but that absolutely made me think, this is wrong. You know, what, everything about it was wrong. And so yes, I then sort of felt an anger, because before then, men and women have, um, you know, just sort of accepted roles and not really thought about it, but that really Made me think, you know, it's just something that happened to a woman and it was completely and utterly wrong. And the way a man treated it, where a man's career was more important. That shouldn't been delayed by getting what would have been rightful punishment for this woman who was, her life was basically destroyed. You know, physically she'd been destroyed. That hasn't got any better, unfortunately. No, Lauren's actually been leaving to Brighton from the Channel Islands, having, um, herself been raped and going to the police and she's got the recordings, she's got the telephone um, messages, he messages and apologises afterwards and she went to the police, got, you know, all the swabs and all the stuff for evidence. Gave them the proof that he messaged and said sorry, straight after. And, um, he's got off with it. He just got away with it leaving and moving to Brighton said, get away from the channel lines. And it does feel like, as much as I love living here, it does feel like we are more in the nineties than, Brighton. I mean Brighton's. Right. Brighton's kind of slightly in the future. mm-Hmm. So it is quite crazy to go from. Somewhere that's so ahead to coming somewhere. That's definitely much further back. And there are pros and cons.'cause the pros are, it feels much simpler here. And when we were away from the world and I literally don't watch the news and I can just hide from the awfulness of what's going on out there. depends it, which I do, but it, it's nice to not have it all the time, like bombarding. Then the other drawback of that is that I'm also hearing, like I, my mom turned around and reacted to the way these guys were talking about women who were the same age as her, and I have literally never seen my mom do that, ever. She just turned around and just gave him the strictest head teacher look It was brilliant, but yeah, the misogyny here is. The scale and the slut shaming and, and I've, I've literally never experienced that. I mean, even in Essex it was a lot more tongue in cheek and kind of laddy and a bit more jokey. Whereas here it's aggressive but yeah, I think, Feminism for me was such an empowering and enlightening thing. Like, I was a born again Christian, and then I studied Feminism at university, and doing English literature, and yeah, just had this proper moment where I was like, what have I been given? believing in and then dropping that and I didn't talk to my dad for six years because I was just angry with him and yeah, kind of anger at the male, the male thing. But I'm definitely, and especially at the moment, I feel like there's a lot of lovely non toxic masculinity that is growing and that needs supporting and nurturing because I feel like they're trying to find their feet and, and a lot of, Need to support that like just last night. There was a guy who's in his probably in his 60s I'd say mid 60s and he was saying how he would love there to be a men's group or you know Like the kind of things I do with the mean Sarah I like to do that But I don't know where to place it or how to initiate it and and there are other men on the island who'd be really Up for it, but it's putting that first foot forward and not wanting to seem sort of silly and sissy and whatever but wanting to do something and the way you could be vulnerable and cry and Yeah. So it's, supporting that happening and nurturing it and helping. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a difficult one. I mean, men, I, waking, sweeping, generalizations, I think often need to do things in a parallel way. Literally physically, you know, have conversations by sitting next to each them's driving. Yeah. Yeah. Or fishing, or doing a thing that doesn't involve eye contact, or whatever. it's, yeah, it's something they need to explore. We are meant to walk, aren't we? We were. We were. We walked alongside each other. And so I think even for women, if you go for a walk with someone and talk things through, you'll go much deeper. I'm sitting in the car with my mum. You know, we want really deep conversations because I feel like chairs are, the guilty party for so many things. I think half our illnesses are from chairs I don't have intolerances to wheat, dairy and sugar, which I do normally. It's because I'm processing it so quickly, like I'm eating and then I'm walking and 10 miles a day, so it's very casual and we'll have like a massive lunch, you know, so that's four or five miles a day, five, five miles and then a really long lunch in a pub and then five miles. I mean, it's pretty relaxed really, but it's just, you know, every day for seven weeks, that's what gets tiring. But we have such amazing conversations and. It's really meditative, so the speed of walking puts you into a meditative state. And then, like, my sciatica goes away, RSI, all of these things, you can literally feel it, like, wax sort of dripping down and just going. And then you come back, I can feel the terror in my body of the idea of sitting again, but it's so, addictive, once you start sitting down, you're just like, ah, I'm just going to sit here, ah, ah, hard to get yourself back outside again. It's the chariot. Bloody Stop us from moving and getting anywhere. So Dee, what about spirituality for you? Were you Was that part of your world at all? I am absolutely fascinated by religions. Love them. and in some ways the more bonkers, provided they're not dangerous, the better. I love the Panacea Society. Oh, what's that? Tell me about that. Which is, uh, it's a little group. But there was a, I think, sort of Victorian woman who decided that God spoke to her and she wrote all these letters and they're put into a box and only when seven leaders can come together can they be opened. I know this box. Yes, I do know about this. The Anne de Chalefant's box. And I mean, it's lovely because the panacea society no longer sort of exists because it Everybody has died out, but they've got a lovely little tea room and a little museum and they've got this lovely little house in Luton. It's a small cottage, a two bedroom, and it's kept beautifully for when Jesus comes back. Wow.'cause he's going to come to Luton And that's interesting.'cause Luton's on the lay line, the Michael and Mary. Oh my goodness. Never gone through it. I've always gone round it because it was vast and it was terrific, like that was the most, social deprived, just unbelievably run down place I've ever been, and I just tried to get around it as quick as possible I'd been in this glorious countryside all the way from the West country and it just been stunning. And I was arriving in Dunstable, which sounds amazing. Dunstable country, you know, like Dunstable. Uh, uh, uh, uh. And I was staying at the Fox and Pheasant and I arrived, and it was weird because it was over a ridge and the ridge was stunning and it was all beautiful views and then I went down through this graveyard and then in the graveyard there was a grave with a plank of wood across it with two stakes either side, so you couldn't read what was on the grave. Really violent looking, like this rope wrapped, making sure you couldn't read what was written on this grave, and I was like, mad. And then I came out, and there's a busy road, and then the fox and feather was across the road. Which was a lot less presque and pretty than I was expecting it to be, it was this really busy road. And I walked in and it literally looked like the set from Shameless. everyone looked like a heroin addict. And they all turned around and looked at me and I think, Uh, uh, Not what I was expecting. And I went into my room and, I mean it looked like a brothel. It was just, everything about it was not safe feeling, all, and actually, for your time, Farron. When I went back out, I was like, I've literally just been in the countryside for six weeks. If the awesome equinox, and we've got feathers coming out of my hat, I looked mental I'm not where I thought I was going to be. and he goes, no, I completely get it. This is not like that. And I was like, no, it's a but they were actually really lovely. And. I've also since found out that there's a stone circle in Luton and there's, in Royston, which is just past Luton, there's a, Knights Templar cave that was, covered in carvings. Which is really stunning. But Luton, I found out, is the name of a god. The Celtic god. Now I'm quite intrigued about Luton. As a fact, you've just said that as well. I think I'm going to have to go to Luton and actually embrace it. Embrace Luton. Because part of me thought, oh, you know, this is a bit bonkers. But I thought, actually, given the diversity of Luton, There's no diversity in the poverty. It's dirt poor. yeah, perhaps if Jesus was coming back, I think he would go for Luton rather than Mayfair. Yeah, absolutely. I would hope growing up, was there, what was What was kind of happening in that world around you, like what, because they're quite interesting characters living around you and being around you, weren't there? There was lots of artists, but was there any spiritual element? My mother went in for a big, Buddhism's phase, didn't do things by halves. And that became very big and became very pure and it didn't involve me. Right. You know, it was her and Eddie's spiritual journey, it wasn't anything my brother and I were part of, so it felt very different and very alienating, and of course Brighton was quite good on sects and whatever, had the Rajneesh, the orange people, and, uh, various, Would be buddhas and stuff like this in Brighton at that time. And so, yeah, I find all of that terribly interesting. And of course, Dianetics, right by a farmyard on the corner. They've been about for a long while and they're the most bonkers of them all, I think. Do you think your mum was possibly autistic? Yeah. I suddenly, it took me a little while to come to that, but it was because it was when someone said that she wasn't very easy to hug, which seemed, it was quite jarring when she was quite, you know, she was quite giving with her body in other ways, hadn't she? Yeah, well, I mean, she was very promiscuous, but not, Affectionate. Why? I can't remember her ever touching me. Really? Wow. Blimey. I mean that seems odd now, but at the time didn't. Because? there is a photo of her with her arms sort of draped across my shoulder. And I'd have been about 14 or 15 and I, I can remember at the time thinking, This is a bit odd. And you look at other people's family photos and you think, nah, you know, you're sat on your grandma's lap or your dad's got his arm around you or, but yes, yeah, I think that is a very real possibility and certainly nowadays I think would have. Would have been identified as such that, yeah, that as sort of aloofness and whatever, yes, I think pretty certainly was autistic, but I think at that point, autism was only sort of people who were either like the Rain Man, you know, people with very obsessive focused Intellectual abilities or people who were, put into institutions because they're all profound, you know, unable to interact, but there wasn't any it's a bit like I sort of think, you know, mental illness now has become something that is part of everyday life, but for a lot of people. My lifetime and whatever, either you should pull yourself together, or you were locked away or heavily medicated. There wasn't sort of any in between. It is amazing, isn't it, the amount of stigma that has lifted, and how lucky we are for that to have happened. Absolutely. Yes. Because I think, you know, once you know something about yourself, you can do stuff with it or you can walk with it or you have to adapt to it. But if it becomes real, then you've got the choice. Otherwise, you're just sort of stuck there, aren't you? You're, I think, because there's been elements, I don't think I'm very autistic, but I've recently realised more from moving here. How much I struggle with small talk and, I actually find it physically painful and it was, it was so not something I would have ever have considered, but then, a friend of mine, a mum had suggested that she might be and we're quite similar. And I was like, okay, actually, that does make sense. haven't had a diagnosis or anything, but it's just useful because what will happen is some really banal, pointless thing to me, especially in the pub, people do it all the time. And I'll try and think of some answer to it when I literally couldn't give a fuck and then afterwards I'm like, why did I say that? That doesn't make any sense. Oh, that was really awkward. Oh, now I feel really, really awkward and I'll beat myself up for it. Whereas now I'm, Well, that was a stupid question and I don't answer to it because what was I meant to say to that? It's fine. It's okay to feel awkward, right? Yeah. So I feel like it's given my, yeah, me space to be more forgiving of myself, which I imagine when you don't know that there's someone on the island who, is known as being really terrifying. Who's an older lady. And she's terrifying. She's so blatantly autistic. And there isn't, yeah, the world's passed her by, and she's actually softened in the time that I've lived here. So I feel like actually just the world softenings allowed her to soften. But it's, you can see how those tools and this way of being could have been so useful earlier on in her life, you know, and that actually, you can see what happens when someone's masking or just trying to get by when actually they're finding everyday life very confusing or, painful because it's almost like you're slightly more exposed, I think, than people that are more normative or whatever the word would be, that you're, yeah, the shining armor. I feel like when you are more normal, you've got this lovely shining armor that protects you and you've still got this inner world that you, you want to share and. You'll share to people that you feel comfortable with But when you're neurodivergent, it just feels like there's almost like a hernia or a bit of the skin's missing and these things are sticking out And it just feels like it's a bit more exposing and to know that that's what it is means that it's less weird and scary because otherwise you're just experiencing the sensation of it rather than understanding why you're feeling it and why that's happening. Yeah. It's useful. As much as labelling isn't necessarily a great thing, I think it is useful actually to know why it's happening. It is, because it gives you an understanding and then you can do what you choose to do with it, including parking it and dealing with it at another time. Exactly. Because it's kind of noticing, it's just noticing things going, Oh right, that would be why I do And so the last thing I wanted to ask you is to share with us an idea for a chaos crusade. Something that we can do that breaks the matrix and messes up our otherwise never ending existence. I think it is quite useful and I learned this during lockdown when I could only go out for an hour a day and not be near other people. And I took to Facebook. Sometimes choosing a theme for where I was walking and I would think, okay, today I'm going to be interested in, one of them was, I'll be interested in fonts. I quite like fonts. And so as I was going down the streets, I was looking at the signage and thinking, oh, when was that street named? Oh look, that's a sort of font in tiles that must have been done at the beginning of the 20th century. That's quite a modern one because it says Brighton and Hove. Well, and I started looking at the fonts on the shop scenes and thinking, Oh, that tells you the period at which, that shop front was designed. Or, uh, for being here. And we'll talk more about that when we get to that in the next episode. Bye bye. Which are where a shop is, or a sign is more than a hundred years old. So you see them on the peeling. And that was exciting. And other days I think I'm going to look at things, green things. You know, Britain has got more green than you, you realise till you look for it. And then I found out that human beings can see more shades of green than any other animal. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. I guess we sort of need that because green is safe, it's a safe color. It's sort of telling you, you can probably eat it. It's, you know, if something's red, you probably shouldn't eat it. And so other times I'd think, okay, we're going to look at that. The geology, look at the ground you're walking on, look at the walls and think about why those walls flint, why those walls, you know, and it just, yeah, it was good because sometimes that can just take me, okay, I'm going somewhere, I'm not going to use my usual route, I can get there on time by just going down a different street and it's nice because then you see things that you didn't usually see or you're just having another way of doing something and that's always good, isn't it? That was exactly what happened when I started walking around looking at Brighton through the eyes of your mum's generation. Finding that poem to your mum on the wall in the Houghton Hound pub. Yeah. Because I've been in that pub hundreds of times and it just made me realise how you don't look at what's on the wall in a pub. And, I would never have stopped and read that poem and even if I did, I wouldn't have known what it was about. And just to suddenly be like, oh my god, this was written for your mum. It was just such an amazing moment and realizing that I was in the same bedroom that was her bedroom, but that was the room that had been her room. Like, incredible. Yes. Uh, uh, uh, well, thank you so much, Nikki. That was wonderful. I've really enjoyed it. I always love seeing you and thank you so much for letting me be part of your world and your life because, you know, I'm just a nosy old person who's asking all these questions but I really appreciate that you are so open and that you're up to this because I thoroughly enjoyed it. You've changed my life. Actually, do you want to see a picture of Anne? Oh, please. That would be wonderful. Yes, please. Oh, here we are. Oh, look, there she is. You know, you're looking more like her, actually. Am I? My goodness. First thing I thought when you came on the screen, I was like, oh, you look loads more like your mum than you did last time I saw her. Because that's something nobody ever said to me when I was a child. Because she was considered, you know, very much a beauty and she had looks that were particularly loved at that time and everyone's like, Oh, we don't look like your mum. I sort of got the message. Uh, uh, I feel like that happens. My brother looks so much more like my dad than he did when he was younger. I'm right. But more like my mum. So I think we grow into, yeah. I'm gonna try and do this without knocking the, there's the hip bone that was in your house. Oh my goodness. I know it's not her hip bone but for a long time I thought it was her hip bone. uh. For a good 15 years I thought it was her hip bone before I found out. Uh, Oh wonderful, thank you Nikki. No thank you, it's been a joy. Lots of love my darling. Mwah! And to you too sweetheart. This is the end of the video. Well, an amazing conversation. Thank you so much, Nikki. And thank you own clock for. Having Nicki, I'm glad you were a mother, and I'm glad that you created Nikki because she's wonderful. And I hope you're proud of her. I'm so grateful to this beautiful woman for. Being so generous and for letting me into her life. So huge. Thanks Nikki. For being. The wonderful human that you are. And. I'm so happy that I know you and you've had. We've both been able to have wonderful impacts on each other's lives. It's a huge love and I'll see y'all next week. See you then on. Yeah. Cheers! Have a great day! Cheers! I don't know.