#10 The Elephant in the Room: Denis Whyte and all the angels

In this week’s episode I get to chat with my dear friend Denis, as we discuss spirit, alternative dimensions, and rooms full of angels. Denis Whyte is a former award-winning documentary producer specialising in Hindu/Buddhist spiritual practices. He’s been an energy healer since 1980 and is involved in spiritually based community work in his neighbourhood in London. 

I met Denis on the first pilgrimage I walked with Extinction Rebellion from Brighton to London, when we shut down the city. Since then he’s joined me on the last three pilgrimages that I’ve walked, travelling the length and breadth of England on foot. 

Denis is such a sweet soul and I could chat with him forever.

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms. Please like, follow, and review. Also, please consider supporting the podcast by becoming a patron on my Patreon page... patreon.com/JolieRose.

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Hope you enjoy listening to this week's episode!

Transcript

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The mountains and the caves. Wicked witches. Crusting the unknown. Transcribed by https: otter. ai Welcome to the Nonsense in the Chaos. This is the 10th episode, which is extremely exciting, and I am your host, Jolie Rose. This week I have the absolute pleasure of speaking to a really good friend of mine called Dennis White. Dennis is an incredible human being. He's an absolute angel, which we talk about a lot, and he is someone that I had the pleasure of meeting about four years ago now. Uh, actually probably about five years ago when we walked with Extinction Rebellion from Brighton to London and I met him in London and then, he came and joined me on some of the pilgrimages that I've walked across the UK. also, in his previous life was a film producer, a documentary maker, and was right at the forefront of 60s, 70s, 80s, Yoga, Buddhism, East Teric Indian and Tibetan faiths and traveled all over the world, meeting gurus and making documentaries about them. And so he's got lots of celebrity friends and yeah, he's a proper lovey darling and he's adorable. And I can't wait for you to get to hear his wisdom and, and just look at the world through his eyes. Cause he's a beautiful. Soul. And we begin this podcast talking about Jonathan Kaye. I'd mentioned that I'd done a podcast with him recently and he starts telling me about how Jonathan run amok at a festival that Dennis goes to regularly. So that is the conversation we drop into immediately and I hope you enjoy. See you then on. So what, Jonathan's performing at a festival you're going to. Yeah, so there's this festival called Wasinga which has been going on for like 12 years and it's 150, 200 people and the, and Jonathan's been before and he took over the whole festival. It's a small thing. And he basically, there were really elaborate acts and events. For instance, there was a tree full of people who did those, you know, they're on straps kind of thing. And they tumble down and there was a burning of a gigantic tetrahedron that somebody had made out of wood patch with fireworks and stuff like that. Anyway, that was all grist to his mill way there, whatever was arranged. Jonathan took over and he led the entire group on this, half of which were completely entranced and hadn't stopped talking about it ten years later. And half of which are outraged, you know, who's this man? What's he doing? He's often said that he would love to go to watch Wind in the Willows or something at the National Theatre and just, he has to make sure he doesn't sit on the front row when he goes and watches plays. Because he's just always wants to just jump up and be like, Hi, I'm Toad's cousin. And just wander onto the stage and start performing with them and they'll have to just deal with it. Very good. Which would be incredible, but yeah, he's definitely a force of nature. Anyway, every year in the past I've looked forward to this with tremendous excitement, and this year I can barely bother to get my shit together and go, you know what I mean? But it's a kind of non engagement with the world almost, like a hermit like thing. I think it would be really good for me to break out of this. So for the last, say, nine months, I've been Painting every day and night for about 12 hours, maybe more sometimes. Decorating these bits of the backs of the packaging, domestic packaging. And accumulating probably a thousand plus of these tiny little bits of art. And not seeing anybody except the occasional friend. And doing my work, doing my healing and stuff, but that's An hour a day or two hours a day and receding from life and everything. And I wouldn't say that's not uncommon either, just from chatting to people, you know. What about you? Well, yeah, it was interesting because you said that last time I spoke to you as well. And, uh, so you're continuing with that. At least I'm consistent. Boring, but consistent. And then you come and do a pilgrimage with me and then you really love life again and then you're all engaged again. That may be what I need, actually. Yeah, that's it. That did have that effect. It's a sort of, I guess it's more of a physical thing in a sense. It reminded me of when I used to do yoga and tai chi and qigong especially. There was this daily practice that happened all day long. We would set off at nine and, Pack in about six or whatever time it was and the intervening period, it was plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod. And that plodding, I think, has a really, a resetting purpose. And not just physically, of course, I, I felt physically, but much, much better, but muscular and bone and everything was stimulated, but, but my whole system was, I think the grounding and. You know, even though you're wearing hiking boots and stuff, and that alone is extraordinary. And then there's the company, you know, which was another whole, I was going to say ordeal, but it wasn't an ordeal. Obviously, these are friends, you know what I mean? It was a process, you know, and there was also, it was touching all the parts of me. It was touching my emotional I didn't know I was going to ask you that about pounding the earth, which brings stuff up. I mean, you just can't help it. And I remember walking behind one particular group on the first big one I did with you on Big Pilgrimage, and they were singing in front of me, or walking through some woods. And I was going through the absolute, like, unbelievable agony of revisiting this childhood trauma that I'd had. And now I was absolutely sort of tortured, but it was, it was a healing. So I was about 50 yards behind them. They were hey, nonny nonny down in the woods in front of me. It's, it was an emotionally healing experience. And, and then there was the fact that that was happening to all of us in our differing ways and differing levels. Everybody was getting. That grounding and healing experience and, you know, I think you got it like times 10 and because you were carrying the, the emotional focus of the group and the, to a lesser extent, the physical focus, because it was like, we're doing this tomorrow. It was your organization. So I noticed on a couple of occasions after you finish, it's been like, Like, divorce time, or, which are all kind of collapse time. The effect it has on you must be really, as the leader of the, of the group, must be really, increased enormously. Is that, do you feel? Especially after the first one, the first one was so intense and it didn't, although it was the group and it was the tiredness of doing it, it was a lot to do with the trauma of the planet more than anything. That was the thing that broke me at the end was getting up there and I needed some time apart from people. Someone said that they thought they were going to go home. Instead of sticking around to do the performance and that just broke me because I wanted to go home. The commitment was that we'd walk up there together. We'd create this performance and we'd go do the performance. And the fact that someone was going to just leave and that they could, of course they could, they could do whatever they wanted, but that just completely took the wind out from my sails because I really wanted to go home too. I, I'd had enough and I was tired and all the rest of it. And so I went and had a few days on the island on my own and just chilled out because it was like, people can do what they want to do and whoever's left and whoever's there and sticks around, that's fine. I need to almost like not know and just go and you know, it will figure itself out. and actually everyone stayed, so no one actually did leave. But, when I then stopped, I went to a shop and I heard that the delegates had got on helicopters and everything and was flown away and had left and nothing had really been done. And I found out since then, but because of Brexit, quite a lot of the leaders purposefully didn't do much at that particular cop as a snub to Boris Johnson and to the English government for choosing to leave. Yeah, it just felt really defeated, especially from connecting to the land so deeply. I came out of the shop and had a moment where I nearly ran into the sea and nearly swam out to sea and like, sort of sank onto a jetty and cried, it was a very end of film drama moment. I haven't had a long time to get over that. Do you still believe that those official political things are ever going to solve any of the problem? No. I mean, I didn't even at the time at all, I didn't think anything was really going to come out of COP26. There were points in time earlier to this where we could have put some solar panels on roofs and done a few things and work together. And it could have been an opportunity and for it to be a bit more of an easy ride, whereas now it's going to have to be a lot more extreme, like the changes now aren't going to be able to be as relaxed and subtle. It's gone past that point now. So I'm looking a lot at the moment about the imagination. There's a really good book from what is to what if that Megan talked about in one of the earlier podcasts. And I've been reading it and it's so brilliant. And there was a quote in that which is that this isn't a climate crisis we're following. It's a, it's a crisis of the imagination that actually anything's possible, but we need to imagine it. And we're at the point in time where our imaginations are lacking the most because we're scrolling and we're. You know, just doing things to distract ourselves and everything's vying for our attention. Because of the lack of attention span we now have, we're imagining less and it's our imaginations that are going to come up with ways to move forward and yeah, so it's a fight. It's a battle for our imagination and our inner world. Gosh, how fascinating. Yeah. I'm very excited to be part of fighting for, because I love the imagination. I'm all about that. And the chapter this year at Boomtown is the Revolution of Imagination. So just, it, it's sort of in the zeitgeist at the moment, that feels like it's in the ether. But yeah, fine. And of course, you know, we limit the imagination to being a thought process, you know, it's kind of, but it's not. It's an interaction with other intelligences. And I wonder how much of our imagination is our own creative thought, our own original thought, and how much of it is just the interaction with our consciousness. Angels or whomsoever and yeah, I think because you know, that is as far as I know, they haven't yet got somebody watching your imagination. I mean, they can watch your output, but they can't actually see what you're thinking. So it's a good place to start the revolution there. Yeah, totally. But you know, darling, for me it's become so obvious that the elephant in the room of everybody's room is the fact that the room is packed with spirits, that we are denying that we are in a multidimensional world and that we are continuously being affected for good and for bad or whatever. We don't know anything about that because it's not allowed within our culture. I mean, in other cultures it is, of course, but, uh, and those cultures have tended to be suppressed at the time. You know, the indigenous cultures and the tribal cultures. That's, well, that was what I was about to say is Jonathan in his conversation with me last week was talking about love being the moving force of the whole universe, that the whole thing, whatever this thing is, is love and that everything is connected and the imagination is part of that, that everything's part of it. And we, like you say, we've limited ourselves to this very subjective, you know, experience of reality where we think this is the thinking, this is the heart, this is emotion, this is work time. Like we just separate everything. We've separated ourselves from each other and from all of the experiences of spirit. And that was the thing that was interesting on the pilgrimages, was how everyone had very different experiences of what the lines were, like the energy lines, whether they were real, whether they weren't, whether they were It was something you could actually feel physically or whether it was more of a synchronicities or just magical things happening around them. And yeah, just everyone had such different ways of interacting with them that I felt, you know, for me, it was like, they're all valid and it's, it's everyone's personal relationship to whatever's going on and their own sensitivities. And that's what's so fascinating about people. That's why I'm doing these interviews and talking to people because everyone's a parallel universe living alongside each other. Yeah. We're actually all one, but we're all having this really fascinating subjective experience, which I think is a game or a play or something, you know, we're here doing a thing and, and it's really interesting. It's almost like as one being, I'm there going, what's going on in Dennis world then? Oh, how's, what's that like? What's that experience like? Check each other's worlds out. Truly. Absolutely. And I think that's coming to the fore. Basically, there, there was a timeline for it and a, and a sequential, you know, breakdown. And, the apocalypse, it means the, the tearing of the veils between the dimensions. So, you know, apparently beneath us is a demonic dimension or different spirit entities and above us there's the astral and that is a entirely different energetic space without time and so on and so forth. And those veils according to, the Christian Bible and of course many other religious systems are tearing and So there's this leak through from above and below and if you're sensitive you're picking it up already and there is, it seems to be, there's an awful lot more what you might call spirit activity in people's lives and generally around and I think that's going to increase also. And, you know, this podcast is like, we are, we're right in the midst of something that's not going to happen for another 12, 000 years, or if we live in this cyclical time. And also we're right at the very bottom, we're at, we're at six o'clock on the clock, having come down to send it. And now, uh, the end, the end of Karli yogas, they see, you know, the, the, the dark age of iron is coming to an end next spring, solstice darling e Equinox on whatever it is, March 21st, next year, 2025, the end. So we have to go through this period of pyrosis that the common flag. It's like just when you think things are picking up, you've got to be burnt, you've got to be purified, because there's a possibility that we are actually changing dimensions. It's not just an environmental thing, the world is changing and the weather is changing and this is changing and that is changing. It's the entirety of our world is changing and our time and power are the energies that are coming in. People feel it, everybody feels it, it's like the increasing insanity of politics and so on. And as you said, the winding down of imagination, all the songs are the same now, all the books are, you know, this, the kind of Hindu view was that there were two energies, it was like a creator God, and then he burst into two, split into two, masculine and feminine, but it's not really anything to do, it's, it obviously involves gender, but it's not. And they kind of saw the masculine as the theater, and the seats, and the feminine as the play, and the actors, and the audience, and the flow, and that shakti, and, you know, the, the experience of walking, or that daily plodding, certainly on the, the paths you took us on with, along the lane lines and so on, you are kind of tapping in, you're tapping in moment by moment to the whole, wholeness. It took me six months to recover from six weeks walking, not physically. I was much well after the walk than I was before. I just couldn't settle. I just wasn't like, you know, it was, I was discombobulated by my interaction with the energies, which were, which have never been so. Uh, strong according to the experts like Rory Duffinson. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I love the, I, well the, I really feel it in me. The concepts, but that's not the word, the sense that we are gonna vibrate into a different reality and that that's not, Neil Gaiman does it a lot actually in his work and there's one where there's A kitten who goes to see a cat do a talk and the cat is saying that once cats were big and humans were small and they used to play with them and eat them and terrorize them. And then one day a human, had a dream that they swapped places and he went and told people this dream and he kept going and moving around telling people this story, this dream like a messiah, like telling people this good news that things will change. And then enough people went to sleep dreaming that dream and the next morning they woke up and humans were big and cats were small. And so this cat was going around trying to talk the cats into having the dream. I love that story and it feels like that's what. When we're talking about this, this is what it reminds me of and makes me think or feel inside, is that it's not about us getting from A to B, like in terms of space travel or in terms of sorting the environment out or any of these things. In a way, it might be that it physically, literally plays out in an actual storyline. There's also the possibility that you might completely just change channel, that you might be able to just change the, the remote and, and literally change the channel by enough of us going to sleep that night and dreaming and believing. There's something was possible and regardless of any of that being true or real, us going through that process and doing that together and engaging our imagination will make any change happening more likely anyway. So I'm, I'm up for it, whatever. And it, and I think it's just such good brain exercise and spiritual exercise to just imagine these things because we need to use our imaginations. We can't just sit there going, Oh, that won't work. Oh, that's not logical. Oh, that's not possible. And just do bugger all, which is what, because I was an atheist for a long time and was really not, I was a, you know, I denied all of this stuff for a very long time. And, so I've, I know what it feels like to be in that place and it's very self righteous and it's very correct, but at the same time, it was lacking and it was, I just, one day just stood there and was like, it's Greg's bakers and tarmac and feral pigeons and that's it. And I'm, I want more than this. And I used to have more than this when I was a born again Christian. Actually, I miss what I got from that. So even if I might now be coming from a slightly more cynical place, like I, I embrace it all and I say yes to it all. And I also don't believe in it all at all. Like it, I don't believe in anything because I think it's all made up. I think everything's made up. So I don't believe the politics, I don't believe the height. I don't believe the social media. I don't believe the stats. I also don't believe the Wawa. Either. But, I love it. I love all of it. I want to hear what people are coming up with, what they have to say. And I have my things that get me through the night, because we're hurling through space on a lump of rock. I believe in things and I've let things in and I feel such huge things from them. For example, the lines, the energy lines. Yes, it can be coincidence. Yes, it could be that if you walked anywhere, you would have an amazing experience, but it felt so purposeful and it felt so connected and it felt like, the way I've heard it described is that it's like a more direct phone line to the earth and that's what it felt like. But you, Possibly, I've never even done a pilgrimage that hasn't been on a line.'cause the first time we met was on the pilgrimage tea. That is one Extinction Rebellion. Yeah. With Extinction Rebellion. But that was along the Meridian line. So that was a, an a lay line as well, wasn't it? Well, it was supposed to be the one that, uh, magically enabled the British Empire to, to be created. It, it, it, it went. It sort of nub was in Greenwich at the, uh, the Royal Naval College, which of course is how the Empire was created through naval might, British naval power. And it ran down to the sea by Brighton through this gorgeous English countryside and entered into the channel in that spot. And there was this flow of Imperial acquisition, conquering, and so on. And it never stopped. I've never seen it. England was a relatively small country, but the magic was so strong that they ended up controlling half the world. Yeah, that's interesting. But yeah, all of this is just, I love it and I think that we need to share it and talk about it because it's not stuff that you hear in the normal mainstream media. It's just to tickle people's brain and tickle people's hearts and be like, there are other things. There are other ways. Well, yes, exactly. You know, this Shakti, this imagination, that universal love. Is the feminine and the, I had this thing, right? So about, so all my gods have been masculine up, up until about. 12, 15 years ago, and then the goddess appeared and it was like Gaia, if you like, it was the feminine of this planet. And then I became a devotee, as it were, I mean, that was the focus of my worship. And I felt very looked after in that. So when, you know, I do meditation groups and so on, so all that was goddess stuff. About February of last year, I, you know, every week I was praying to her and in communion and it was very personal. Healing relationship and it was maternal. You know, I am her son. I was, she was always saying, you are, she would say to you, you are my daughter who I love. And, uh, I, you are my son who I love. So it was that. And, uh, then the, this feminine energy that I was worshiping suddenly in, in February of last year suddenly died. And was incorporated into what you might call the cosmic goddess, original principle, the second only to the creator energy. And that has been the energy that we've been living in for the last, since that time, so that'd be over 18 months. And that's why the world has gone triple bonkers since then. And her mission was, As I heard it was no abomination since the idea of hell was not going to exist anymore. That's an abomination, torturing and imprisoning its souls. All of that was going to change and everything was going to be restructured very much in the line of the end times, but it was This cosmic feminine force, unbrookable, no other power, the only power that could equal it would be Shiva, would be the masculine, and they are the best friends known to man, you know, and they work together. There's no way they would oppose each other, they always work together. So, Lots of people I know have said this thing, I'm going through a process, the worst possible things are happening to me. The things I wanted to least address are coming into my life and I'm having to deal with them. Sudden deaths, sudden, quite dramatic and upsetting things seem to be commonplace. Plus other phenomena like, uh, synchronicity and so on are just happening all the time now, in kind of hilariously jokey ways to me anyways, as if they're taking the piss. So we're in this. movement, and my feeling was, and I got, this is what God has told me. Not many people. So. If I was going to talk to anyone, I'd talk to you, Ros, because I have to. Why not? Well, I'm in love, you know, I'm in love. Um, the, uh, the, uh, the timeline was the spring equinox of this year. I never get solstice and equinox right. The spring equinox of this year, 2024 to the autumn, the one coming up in September 21st or second, that's this final period for all of us. And there's a kind of clearing out. The massive clearing out and things that we would never have dreamt of going near because they were invisible to us. They were buried, traumas buried in our early years before we had memory are surfacing and coming up for healing and so on. Everywhere it seems to me, certainly in myself. The process was that we would. become clear if all we had to do was endure this. So it was happening to us and that this was the energy, this was the low vibrational energy that was keeping us bound here. Other people's stuff that had been put into us. And, uh, so all that is clearing out so that by September time, a lot of people would be clear of these influences. And you mentioned this idea of frequency or vibration earlier and the whole thing being a. You know, the entire process is a vibration change. So, you can't go through that vibration change when you're carrying all your shit. You can't. You'll just shake to pieces. So, it's a health thing, although it's very difficult and unpleasant for most people. Plus, there's this sort of, a lot of souls just aren't hanging around. Bowing out. A lot of people are dying. I mean, more, it would be common in my age group that people would die and would get ill and so on. But I'm talking about friends, children, and this, that, and the other, you know. And COVID, you know, whether you put it down to that or not, it's happening. So yeah, so what happens after September is going to be really fascinating because there's a possibility that you and those listening to your podcast might. And then what? Then what? Well, yeah, I really enjoy the game, like whatever this game is, I really enjoy it. And I feel like in any game you're only ever given the ends of level bosses that you're capable of playing against. And so this end of level boss is you know, we had the Nazis before in fascism and it was world wars and It was vicious and it was nasty and people had to take sides and all this kind of thing. And it was a very kind of, especially with Return of the Jedi and Star Wars and stuff that came after it. We all know this narrative, like it's, it's the hero and the goodies and the baddies and, but this is way more nuanced. Difficulty where we're having to somehow work out how to allow everyone to exist alongside each other within community because we're all humans and we all deserve to be here and we're meant to be here, but we need to work out how to do it, supporting each other and holding space for each other and learning from each other and enjoying what each other's bringing to the table. Whilst also looking after the planet and connecting to all the other spirits and beings that are here that also have every right to be here and bringing something to the party and really enjoyable to be around and, you know, something to learn from, including the things that we don't necessarily want. For example, um, pube lice, uh, pube lice are endangered, but we don't want them. So we get rid of them, but now there are scientists that are studying them and learning loads of really useful stuff from them. They're having to take it in turns to give each other pube lice. So they're becoming like, you know, kind of keepers of the pube lice and then passing it onto each other and taking it in turns so that they don't let these. The thing will die out. But it's stuff like that, it's like, even if it's not the cute fluffy thing or the nice easy to get on with person, they still all need to be here, they still all deserve to be here, because otherwise we're going to end up with just this really banal monoculture. And it being less clear who's the goodies and the baddies and everything being way more messy. And so many things happening at the same time that we couldn't possibly anticipate. It's not like you could just drop some leaflets and do a propaganda thing like we did in the Second World War. This is people playing with false news on internet. No one knows what's really going on. So we have to find an inner compass and an inner belief in ourselves and what makes us enjoy being alive, like what tickles us, what makes us happy. And standing by that. But also supporting everyone else to find their thing and, and be in their happiness and in their tickled space as well. And that might not be something that you would connect with or agree with or appreciate, but it's their thing and they're bringing that to the table. We don't want just one monoculture of human beings. We don't want one monoculture of crop or it will not survive and we won't survive if we don't, you Yeah. And face all the differences that we have. I could talk to you forever, but also let's let the, the universe and the goddess point us in a direction of something that she wants us to talk about. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. I'm just going to shuffle them. So you tell me to stop. It might not be exactly where you wanted it to stop. There might be a lag on the camera, but we'll. All right. Well, just about there. There. Yeah. That one. It's the moon. Ah. And that's the card. It's got the scarab beetle on it. And. The Egyptian god of the afterlife, the jackal. I can't remember his name. I had this before actually. We pulled this one. Anubis, yeah. Anubis, that's it. That's his name. This is the Thoth tarot deck, which is Aleister Crowley's. So he didn't actually paint it. It was one of the priestesses of his coven or his order painted and they were all giant. Oil paintings. Yes. But they're absolutely steeped in meaning. Yeah. So yeah, the moon card and in the tarot deck, moon card is the dark night of the soul. So it's like what you were saying earlier, yes. With things get harder in the tarot journey, which is the, the hero's journey, it's almost like layers of onion or layers of things getting harder. So it was like I'm talking about at the end of level bosses. Increase with what you're capable of. The moon, I think, is the last dark night of the soul before you get the universe and then you get the fool at the end. So it's, it's yeah, properly going there and exploring those hidden places and those dark places, because you've done the work. So you've got all this lovely light, but then you, there's no plateau where you get to sit in a deck chair and just have a pina colada and everything's fine. Like you're always. Going to be moving on to the next dark place again. Like, you get to go there for a minute, to this plateau, and then you have to go off on the journey again, which is what The Fool is all about. Yes. God. I think that is absolutely spot on, that cut. And it describes what we were talking about just before the, you drew it. Of course it does. We'd already discussed the card before putting it. I always, you know, I do tarot, read tarot and I always think the moon is that, it is a major, it's humbling to you and there is no, you're going to be, you're going to be in a fog, you know, you can't work it out, it's not that sort of energy, it's different and it's a bit distressing unless you accept it. And, yeah, a very, very strong card and a good way to start. So in terms of where you're at, at the moment, does the moon feel like that's something you're going through or exploring at the moment? Perfect. It absolutely sums up the fog I'm in. Haven't you, Legends? It really sums it up. And yet, you know, the deck I've got, the moon is a journey card also, you know, it's a vital period in anybody's journey. And I think it's probably the bit before you reach the summit. I think it's towards the end of your process. I hope so. Anyway. Well, it's interesting because in terms of what we were saying, if you actually look at this, it's got, almost got the energy lines in a ball at the top, there's a blue ball and it's got what looks like energy lines weaving in and out. So that looks like the spine of Albion, you know, lines that they intertwine. Oh yes, yes, yes. And you've got these waves on the bottom with the scarab beetle scarab beetle does, is that the scarab beetle is guided by the sun and the moon. So it's always moving in the direction from east to west. And when it's a dark moon and you can't see the moon, it follows the milky way. They think, they don't actually know how it does it, but it always follows the, off of the sun and the moon. And then it's pushing this little round ball when it does it, the little dung beetle. So So that's why the Egyptians worshipped it, because they saw it as being ruled by Ra, the sun god, pushing a little ball across the desert in the direction of the sun, following the sun. But it can do it even when it's dark. So it's about that inner compass and your own inner journey and knowing, just knowing inside what's the right thing to do and what's the right direction and not worrying about it when you're in the dark, trusting yourself, I guess. Yeah. Um, but also in your, in that card, there's the two towers are there also. I mean, they're, they're, and that's a key part of the moon is that you have to pass through the official, uh, world through this reality that we're in and the control systems that keep it going. You have to kind of pass beyond that in order to, but you can see them. So you're close to the end of that particular journey. And in my card, there's a path that leads to a distant hill, but there's no scarabs. I think that, but you know, that's death as well. Of course. I'd say that, uh, You know, I'm taking this entirely personally, I'd say this, this is a good one. This is, this is accurate for where you're at. And it's got, it's the Pisces card as well, and Pisces is, is the sign of like everything being connected. So, you know, being that we're all drops in a huge ocean, but we're boundary, borderless and boundaryless and that's what the death aspect is, is that we're flowing back into the infinite. this podcast, then please consider signing up to my Patrion account. Patrion forward slash Jolie rose, J O L I E R O S E. This is a full-time thing for me to be doing. It takes a lot of time and energy for me to create the podcast. And I want to be able to give them away for free. And I want to make this work as accessible as possible because I just want to share things with the world. I want to share the ideas and stories that. Uh, around me and that I'm experiencing and all the incredible people that I know, and to be able to create a platform for them. But I also need to live and I need to eat. And I can't do this and spend the time and energy that it takes Unless I'm getting some income from it. Now the way that I like to do that, which makes it, generous and, and an act of kindness is that if you have the money and you're able to, if you're able to just donate a few pounds once a month to my patron account, then it means that I can create the free content for everyone this is a brilliant opportunity and a creative way for me to make a living. But I do need the support of those who can afford it. If you can't afford it, it's fine because the contents free and you can just enjoy it. And someone who has got the money is paying, and that lovely cycle of kindness and generosity and people helping each other out. So can't support me financially, no problem at all. Please share and tell people about it. If you enjoy it. And someone else probably will too. Hopefully. much for your support. I love doing this and I love that you're listening. It's a huge hugs and thank you so much. Now, back to the podcast. So if you want to pick another, tell me when to stop. Yes, please. On your left. Yeah. Further along. Further along. There. Nice one. Yeah. Might as well. Yeah. Luxury. That's an interesting one. So it's the four of cups. Four of cups. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And it's luxury, so it's some very lovely looking cups pouring into each other, everything being very champagne. That does it. I like, I like the sound of that. You love a bit of luxury, don't you? Yeah, four of a cup. That's, yeah, absolutely. But, Yeah, but it's like luxury is no longer suede, leather and cashmere. It's much more community, if you know what I mean. It's much more people and, you know, community somehow. And yeah, that's interesting. Mind you, I still quite keen on Kashmir. Yeah, it's the right of way one with the, with the one of the cups coming out of a cloud. What does that mean to you then? It's a sort of stuck card. You're stuck under a tree. You're kind of contemplating these three cups that exist in the fourth one is coming out of A different dimension. In a, traditionally they see it as a kind of delusion or illusion that you're having to deal with. But I think in a way it's a kind of really good card for what we were discussing the times that we're in where we're sort of 25 percent in a different space, you know, we're Where it's not the way it was anymore. So yeah, it's an interesting card. It's always been a troublesome card, I would say. What do you think? Well, I think it's interesting what you said about luxury, and luxury being something that's more community based now than what it used to be with the Kashmir. And the nice things, because that's what I meant when I was saying that it's going to be a bigger shift than we, it could have been an easier, more gradual change of things with us all moving to renewable energy and doing things differently and going more fair trade and all that kind of stuff. Like if we'd started that in the early 2000s or. Even, you know, the 90s when we first started worrying about these things, you know, Lisa Simpson, when she first started going on about it, then we should have taken notice. And if those, yeah, if we'd taken that amount of time, then it would have been a more gradual process and possibly. The luxury that we used to would have been more possible, but things are going to have to change in a much harsher way now, I believe it's going to, that's why I'm saying it takes imagination because it's going to be a bigger shift and it's going to be more of a putting on the brakes with a harder stop. And so luxury is going to shift and people aren't going to like it. And like I was watching something on the TV recently because I was asked for doing some performing at Glastonbury. I'd asked for some inspiration as to what it was we were trying to do. Get across and we were doing stuff where we were being influencers and kind of taking the Mickey out of the whole capitalist consumerist world. And I got pointed to watching a couple of documentaries. One on a TikTok dance company called 7M was called Dance for the Devil, which is unbelievable. If you haven't seen it, watch it. It's shocking about a company of dancers who are. They're in a cult and are still there now. And they live in a house with this guy who takes all their money. And they dance all day for TikTok videos and are making loads of money. Well, they were, they're making loads of money, but they're not getting to keep it because the people who've left have shared how little they're getting to keep. And that was really shocking. And then also a series about real estate agents in Beverly Hills selling the biggest mansions to the richest people. And they're all Barbie dolls and it's just the world that they're living in. It's so different to my reality that it's absolutely mind blowing and that's, I guess I hadn't really engaged with the most up to date popular culture, mainstream popular culture for a long time. And it, it blew my mind that someone in a council house in Braitree where I grew up could be watching this program and that be the reality that they're, somehow buying into and then the TikTok world and watching these TikTok videos of these people dancing who were in a cult and are being controlled by this person. And I was like, why God, we've gone mad. And this is luxury, like that's luxury. And how do you ask those people to give up, you know, I can't even, I don't even know where to begin. Your giant lips or your huge stilettos or you're like, how do you ask someone to give any of that up because of the thing called the planet that they don't even know exists? Like it's just not even there. And I, and then the thing that makes me sad is that these people who are absolutely not even part of that world, who don't have any of the privilege of it or any of the. Access to any of the luxury that comes with it. are watching that and are themselves devoid from all of the planet and the land, but are not even getting to enjoy the, the rewards of what this world is that they're watching and buying into. Yeah. And just living in, you know, tarmac and feral pigeons and Gregg's bakers. Oh my God. That's what really does my head in. Yeah. Like, you're watching this idea of luxury. I'm really not interested in the mud and the flowers and the plants and the, the stuff that's actually real that is, you know, the closest to real that you can get is the seasons, the plants, the, the planet, you know, if there is any bit that is real, it's that. And you're not looking after yourself, you're not looking after your body, you're not healthy, and you have no healthy relationship with what actually is real. And you're watching something that's completely devoid of reality and believing in it, and it's not even your reality, it's not even anything like the world you're living in. So yeah, that I find fascinating. That's what Klaus Schwab means, where you'll have nothing and you'll love it, you know. We will own those little videos and things on our phones or whatever, you know. That's it. And that will be our culture. Everything will be containable on digital slivers. We won't need paintings or record players or whatever. We, it'll all be there. We'll be, we'll be happy with it. They will have colonized our imagination and. They will be charging us for it. Which is exactly what's happening. That's the direction that we're going in. So many of the certainties have changed. The idea of a welfare state, for instance. You know, when I was brought up, that was always in the background, that was a welfare state. And now that's gone. You know, there's no guarantee anybody will Look after you, if you're ill. Oh, I mean, this is, we are just, I know this is boring, but it's true. We're in the most unbelievable change. And, uh, the four of bloody, and part of it is delusion. The four of cups. Yeah. The delusion of luxury and thinking that it's wonderful to have all these things, but actually what are you going to do with it? You can't take it with you to your grave and it's delusional. And in a way, it's the second delusory card. The moon is a delusion too, isn't it? Or it's an illusion perhaps, but it's definitely a different sort of mindset. Oh, God knows what the third one's going to be, darling. Okay, let's see. You tell me when to stop. Yeah, in the middle. Maybe head and down. That's it. Yeah. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. You've got your, yeah. Yep. Yeah. It's the sun that it day. So good. Mean and sun. Yeah, with the mean and the sun with luxury in between. I love the artwork. It's so good, isn't it? It's so good. And this one's got the twins on it, which talks about a lot with Jonathan, the twin, and how we see ourselves as separate. But actually, and it's like I was saying, so if this is the car before the moon and then you get the universe and then you get the full. Yes. Okay, so in my date, the Fool is like the first one or the zero card. Yeah, so you come back round, so the Fool is everything and nothing. Yeah. You go on the Fool journey, but it's the beginning and the end. Yes. Gosh. So what do you reckon the sum? I mean, it's, it's rebirth, isn't it? I mean, at least in my card, it's rebirth. Um, um, yeah, I'd say that's really good. I think it sums up my card. my predicament and gives me this optimistic denouement. Thanks, Sonic. It's interesting on this deck as well because it's got each of the horoscope signs surrounding the disc. And then it's also got the land crowned with the twin light angels. Yes. So I'd say it's almost like it's fully encompassed and supported and illuminated and celebrated. All the different dispositions, all the different personality types, they're all there together in what looks like a kind of summer solstice celebration and the, the land is crowned. So the land has got this kind of, Oh yeah, round thing on it. And then the angels, these twins, it's almost like the inner and the outer are one, we're all together. They're spirits, they're angels, but it could also be human, like the higher part of us. Uh, is one again and we're all fully supporting each other and everyone's there and includes the land as well. Do you have a sense of, of your angel, of your guardian as it were? To an extent I have. So I have a, I nearly drowned when I was 10 at the cheetah place that I work at Kentmore Hall and I, someone jumped in and saved me. You actually looked a lot like you. It was an older man. With white hair and, and yeah, looked very much like you. He was thin and, um, wiry and he jumped in in a full Tudor costume. And so like my last thoughts were, okay, I was being saved. So it meant that I could relax and I let go and I blanked out. But I also was concerned for this person who's jumping in because they looked really old and they were in their full woolen outfit. I was just in my shift. So I remember being like, Oh God, I hope they're all right. And then blanking out. And then I got saved, but I got saved by a visitor who's in jeans and t shirt behind me. So no one in Tudor costume jumped in to save me. Um, and that, because of that happening, someone who was a Pagan, who worked at the place, this when I was like 13. So this is the early nineties. It was not like the big Pagan revival would happen. It was quite a niche thing, but obviously I was at a Tudor reenactment, which was also a niche thing. He was a beekeeper and he came up to me and he said, Oh, I heard you had a near death experience. You know, that means you're on the shamanic path and I'm 13 and into Nirvana and I'm like, Oh my God, that's the coolest thing I've ever had. And I didn't really know what it meant, but it was just a useful or interesting thing to have been told. And it, that affected lots of things that I then went on to do. So when I started, I started doing standup comedy and was kind of in the performing world, but I was doing standup comedy and was doing quite well, uh, won some competitions and stuff and ended up at Edinburgh and things. But someone gave me a book and it was those For Beginners cartoon books. And the For Beginners book was Clowns for Beginners. And all the way through it started with a shaman and it was saying how the shaman was the first showman and that as soon as we had existential fear and angst, we would want to know how people survived death. And so anyone who did survive death, we'd be like, how did you do it? How did you do it? And they couldn't really express it in words. I mean, we had a lot less words for a start, but also words are coming from the thinking and the outer world. And so we would try and express it and we perform it and it would become a sacred thing in its own right to see these performances and people felt like the performances had hitting. Properties and healing qualities. And so the shaman is the showman. That's where all art originates from. And the earliest art is us blowing ochre over our hands on the walls of a cave, saying we're here, you know, and you can put your hand on that person's handprint and, and connect over all those hundreds of thousands of years and connect with that person. So I felt like he was an angel and he put me on this path. But then I also had the very strong connection with the angels having walked the Michael and Mary line. I'm really feeling Michael. There's the hand on my back saying, you've got this. And then the hand on my heart was Mary saying, I've got you. And I felt so looked after and protected. I didn't feel vulnerable at all as a woman on my own walking across the country. I felt really safe and looked after and held. And I got to Bury St Edmund's Cathedral on St Michael's Day on Michaelmas and I arrived there and I got a blessing there. He said, all the angels are with you and they've been holding you and supporting you on this journey. And I had a vision where I saw all the angels come in to me. They're all golden beings, exactly like the sun, like golden beings of light. Michael wrapped himself around me with his wings, and Mary came and held on to my front. But then all the other angels piled in as well, and I got a massive group hug from all the angels. And just this massive ball of golden light held me and hugged me. That was cool. That story really is incredible, because I also drowned when I was ten. Oh, wow. I was doing my Cubs swimming proficiency test, and I started drowning, and a boy called King jumped in and saved me, fully clothed and saved me, and I failed the test. I don't know how much fair is that. The Scoutmaster banned me from attending the scouts for two weeks as a punishment for scaring everybody, or I don't know why, for that thing. So I just saw it as a negative experience. And of course, when one is told it is a sign of a shamanic thing or whatever, you know, that fellow told you, then it sort of makes sense of it in a way that But I never have until now. Now I can see it in those terms, if you know what I mean. Yeah. I never saw King again. It was really weird. It was, he was a boy in my school, but he, that was what he was there for. Wow. That's amazing. There's an artist called Scroobliss Pip, who's a spoken word artist, and he nearly drowned at 10 as well. I think it might not be exactly 10, but it was around the same sort of age. And he saw an old man and he then got a stutter, so he has a stutter, but he doesn't have it when he's. Rapping, like when he's speaking, so he does kind of spoken word freestyling and it's coming from a different place and so he just channels and when he channels he doesn't have a stutter. When he talks normally he does. Wow. So what do angels mean to you then? I think they're the elephant in the room. I think that they're a massive part of our lives but we're turned off to them. And I think that we do have a A guardian angel, a specific angel. I think that they practice unconditional love. That's the only way they could surely tolerate being with me, for instance. But you know what I mean? There's no judgment involved. But there is some sort of, they've got the script in some way. They know what, what's supposed to happen and they help that. I've seen, very rarely do I see anything, but I did once see an angel and it was a light, a creature of light. It was as if the element of earth was missing, everything else was similar. It was my angel and I got this burst of love from it. It was beautiful and so I was connected with it and never really took it, I took it rather for granted, you know, but at least it was there. And I feel like, only now am I able to deepen that relationship. I think I have to actually, in some ways that is part of the process and it would make sense, wouldn't it, to recruit all those powers as it were, but the thing is, are they on the same level in the same category as demons, for instance? Are they just the light rather than the darkness? So I don't really know anything about them and the biblical descriptions, you know, the Seraphim and so on and so forth is fascinating, but doesn't really I haven't got it. I think if we ever do enter a different dimension, it will be full of angels and others. Yeah. I don't understand, but I'm so in favor of them. Yeah, exactly. Like, even when I was a Christian, it wasn't, my, my version of Christianity was very Jesus focused. Yeah. I wasn't really into the kind of biblical demons and like the more Old Testament stuff. It wasn't my bag. It was more Jesus being, I think it was the anarchist in him and the purity of his vision. And yes, that, that was what I was connected to. So angels have never really been part of my reality until the lines, like the energy lines. That was the first time just from getting to know who Michael and Mary were in a more Kind of esoteric way, really, isn't it? Yeah, getting to know what they represent outside of Christianity, but also, you know, being informed by it. My mum told me a story when I was about eight, and she said when she was eight, she lived on a farm in Ireland, and the Spanish flu was raging through the land, and they believed it jumped farms, and nobody in her farm was affected by it. And the farm next door, which was her cousin's farm, There were two parents and eight kids, and only my auntie Bab and her father survived. And he was a giant, a 6'5 in those days, was a giant. And he was the big local, if you, you know, if a horse got stuck in the bog, he'd come and pull it out. And to the death of all his family, he just sat by the fire for the rest of his life and died prematurely. And poor old Bab had to run the whole show. One of these cousins was laid out in a coffin and in a wake, and my mum was, as an eight year old, went into the room, all the social was happening in the kitchen, she went into the front parlor, and there was, she was alone with this child. dead in the coffin. And she saw an angel taking her soul, as my mom saw it, as an eight year old Catholic girl, up to heaven. And she told me this story frequently, and it was so matter of fact that I just accepted it. You know, it was like the truth from your mom. So, whenever anything supernatural, as it were, came up after that, I was fully, fully sold on the whole thing. Wow. And that's that. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. So the last thing we're going to do is the Chaos Crusade. Have you had a chance to think about something that people can do to just disrupt their reality? Yeah, so, so I really saw this and thank you darling for all of this. If you are feeling like it's tough at the moment and it's really, it's really, it's difficult then I believe that there are two things that can really help and they're disappointingly banal but it's g and g it's grounding and gratitude and grounding it doesn't matter you can just ground wherever you are you don't need to even take your shoes off but if you get a chance in the soil you know the earth and you can Bury your feet in the soil, plant yourself like a tree, open your arms out at your branches and recede. You'll be grounded and you'll be filled of power. And the other thing is gratitude. And, you know, I'm such a grumpy bastard these days that I find it so much easier to be negative and so on. But whenever I do get my shit together and find something to be to be grateful about, then, of course, it helps me. Everything changes. The whole mentality changes. So those are two active powers. You can use g and g baby. So that's my contribution to the to that bit I love that. Thank you. That's perfect And I I hope that you're yeah, I mean, I think you have every right to be grumpy You can do whatever you want and you can clear and be grumpy, but You have so much to give and so much to share that I really appreciate you doing this, at least. I feel funny. Yeah. You are my love and inspiration and thank you so much, Dan. You are mine too. As Ben said, the world's always better if Dennis is around. It does. It feels like you're doing the right thing if Dennis shows up. It's almost like a Butterfly or a wild bird like a, an exotic bird that comes along and just follows you and you're like, oh cool, we're doing something right at this, at this point. If this entity is joining in, then I'm on the right path. Thank you very much. Well, thank you so much. I don't know.