#4 The Fool: Jonathan Kay and all you need is love

This week I’m over the moon to be welcoming the world famous @fooljonathankay to your airwaves. Jonathan is recognised as a leading performer in the ‘Theatre of Immediacy’ of Fooling, and is a highly respected practitioner and teacher of Fooling workshops. He is the founder of the largest street theatre festival in the UK, The Hat Fair, and is an Honorary Fellow of The University of Winchester. He primarily works as a performer and teacher, touring and teaching throughout the world as a Fool for the last 50 years.

Jonathan’s stomping ground is on the cliff between inertia and speed, encouraging participants to fly or to learn how to land, not only in their imagination but also in their purpose. He helps us to look at the hypothetical anchors that can tie people down for a lifetime, engaging them in a compassionate, humorous and sometimes challenging way so they can liberate themselves, turning what appears to be valueless into gold.

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms. Please like, follow, and review. Also, please consider supporting the podcast by becoming a patron on my Patreon page... patreon.com/JolieRose.

You can get in touch with Jolie Rose on Instagram @kriyaarts or the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook. 

Hope you enjoy listening to this week's episode!

Transcript

0:02

The mountains and the caves. Wicked witches. Crusting the unknown. Um, mm. Yeah. Mm. I'm about to interview my second guest for the nonsense in the chaos podcast. And he is an extremely old friend of mine. His name is Jonathan K. And I have known him since 2002. I met his daughter poppy. And we started a theater company together and we used to put on cabarets together. My self. Poppy and Daisy Campbell, Ken Campbell's daughter. We used to put cabarets on, around Brighton Jonathan is. My teacher. My friend and someone I worked for for many years. So I have three very different relationships with him. And I helped him create a thing called the nomadic academy of fools. Which is a school teaching fooling. Although, I'm sure most of us feel that our bosses are fools when your boss really is a fool. It's quite interesting. I remember once phoning him up just to try and find out if he'd say yes to a gig. On a date. And came away about two hours later, trying to work out how a festival that we were going to put on In the toilets that somehow your poo got put in a box that was then gift wrapped. And as you left the toilet door, given this box saying deal with your own shit. I was like, so are you, is that a yes or a no to the gig? It was crazy. So yeah, he's quite interesting person to work for. And then. he's taught me fooling. For a long time and fooling is the most. Terrifying and deeply spiritual thing I've ever done. I've had experiences through Jonathan and through the work of fooling that are deeper than any iowaska ceremony or spiritual religious thing that I've ever done. He, he takes you to places. I like connect to. Being a butterfly being pinned to a corkboard. It's extremely painful. It's really hard. He's pointing. He's going straight into a blind spot with a needle. And he's poking your ego right through the middle. And your ego does everything it can to escape and avoid So I'm indebted and grateful to Jonathan for the amazing adventures he's taken me on. in the outer world, we, we toured for six, seven years with the nomadic academy of falls. It was nomadic in nature. And we would tour Europe and the UK on leap every year for seven years with only one month off. We just were on the road the whole time and we did that. I made lots of lovely friends and really got to know the country and got to know Europe. And it was such an incredible thing to have done busking and hitchhiking and all sorts of things. And then also so many inner world journeys. He introduced me to my archetype. He showed me. You know, what does your inner world look like? It's an interesting question. And. I have got some, some idea of what my inner world looks like. I know some of the flavors that it has and. Some of the mechanics, I know what some of my defense mechanisms look like. But the work is never ending and the inner world is infinite. And our defense mechanisms are in our blind spot. So it's a never ending journey of unfolding and unfurling and deepening and opening and relaxing and cracking. And it's a wonderful, wonderful, thing. And I love it so much. who knows what's going to happen, but it's going to be exciting. So speak to you again on the other side. I don't know what I'm doing with Hello. We've got Jonathan Kaye here, How are you doing, Jonathan? Very well. Very well. Yes. I Well, it's very nice to see you, Julie. I'm very happy to do something to do with tarot cards and whatever you were saying. Yeah, I'm trusting the unknown. So the theory is, my theory is with this stuff, and this is what I've learned through working with you, is that the more we learn to relax with the unknown, The better, especially with a future that is so unknown. And I think people are very scared and nervous and fearful at the moment, and I think the more we can learn to relax with this. fool's journey and stepping off the cliff into the unknown, the more we can go with the flow with whatever changes happen in the future and whatever we need to, you know, relax into. agree. It's very good idea. but say a bit about who you are and what you do, Oh, right. Well, can I explain the fool? Yes, in one sense, it is the sense of something jumping off from something that is like a cliff edge. It would assume that the cliff edge was a stable place, but in fact it probably isn't a stable place. It just looks like fairly stable, a place to jump off from. But actually, within oneself, myself, ourselves, we have we have a way of collecting some sort of historical thing together that I call Jonathan Kay. That, that aspect is something from which I can move. And to be, to be a fool is suggesting that I also have authority. So, authority is a kind of made up thing. I, I, I believe I have truth, all of which doesn't have much foundation other than my persistence in believing that I do have some truth. And because of that, perhaps I do. I know working with other people that their sense of truth is a foundation. It's certainly questioned when they come to being a fool, since the fool itself doesn't have sides, it doesn't The fool is nothing. Really, and it is a quality Me is a kind of everyday occurrence, you know, something that gets out of bed and goes and does this and that and the other. And when I'm doing this, that and the other, I can forget. I can make that egotistically too important. And yet when I settle down, I can, I can wonder that everything that I say as Jonathan, and Jonathan is normally a kind of king aspect, somebody who, who feels that they, at least they have a body and that they can speak and, and do some laughing and joking, none of which is fooling. But when I look out the window or I, I wonder to myself, words. They come to me, like, let's say the word beautiful, or the word wonderful, or the word graceful. When, when we, when we hear that applied to our ego, it, it kind of brushes it up and makes it seem, you are wonderful, and you are beautiful, and. I say to Jolie, You are very beautiful, and you are very graceful. It suggests that I can, that I know something about her. That if I say to her, you are full of grace, and you are full of beauty, and you are full of wonder. Now, this way round, Everybody is the same. If you say to anybody you are full of grace and full of beauty and full of wonder, it will be up to them to twist it and turn it and say, Oh no, I'm not at all. So there's a, there's a universality that everything is full of beauty and full of grace and full of wonder. No matter whether you're looking into nature, whether you're looking into someone's eyes, looking, whether you are, wondering about a butterfly or you're looking at a turd on the ground. All of them are full of beauty and full of wonder and full of grace. But if you have, if you have the idea that you're going to take sides, that you're going to say, this turd is no good, it's useless, then with it goes many other things at the same time, which means that you have a. a demarcation line where something is the right side of it and something is the wrong side of it, which is very much a king and queen aspect. Now, if I say, if I say everything is full of beauty, full of wonder, full of grace, then that suggests It's that I'm looking and feeling something different than my judgment. Jolie is, is beautiful, is, it's my own determined aspect. But if I, if I say she is full of beauty, Jolie, you are full of beauty, full of wonder, full of grace, then there's a, there's a reckoning that says, yes, that is so. And everything in nature is like that. The sea, the sky, the planet, the planet is full of beauty. Full of wonder, full of grace. But if you say the planet is very graceful, very beautiful, it determines that you've got some idea about what beauty is. But if it's full of beauty, then wonder becomes something different. when you're looking at a sonnet, and I say, I say, I see if I can remember a sonnet. From you, I have been absent in the spring, when proud pied April, dressed in all its trim, hath the spirit of beauty in everything, that heavy Saturn laughed and leapt with him. Yet, nor the lays of birds, Nor the sweet smell of different flower In odour and in hue could make me Any summer's story tell, Pluck it from its proud lap where it grew. I did not wonder at the lilies white, Nor praise the deep vermilion in the rose, They are but sweet, but figures of delight, Drawn after you, you, pattern of all those. Yet seemed it winter still, and you away, As with your shadow I with these did play. So, when you listen to the aspect that, that, that it's trying to talk with, then this, this aspect, you can either believe it's a personal quality, a negatistical thing and surely you may think that I am thinking of her. But in, in fact, I am thinking of something beyond Jolie and beyond Jonathan, and that I'm trying to have the perception of something that I, I really visit. And when I consider that, I then begin to hear something different in my, in myself, and as King, I begin to hear something that I am not taking much notice of, and the, the quality, the ego quality of myself. is not enough to sustain anything in me. And it's when I start to look at something else that can give me love and strength that I begin to hear something different and it moves me out of my present melancholy or my present state of mind or my habit because I stretch further than myself into a further place. And when the fool jumps off the cliff, let's say, the most important thing about jumping is not to create the bottom, or speculate that you will hurt, or die, or something. So you jump, and if you don't hit the bottom, or anything, then you begin to fly. So when you're flying, then you must be awake, that you can move through space, and become involved in the inner worlds of the universe. and not have a special landing place where you, you come back to and where you perch. It's possible to perch anywhere, on a flower, in a tree, in someone's eyes. You can move into many different places. And so the quality of the fool is to open the king or the queen to see more than just themselves and their egotistical quality and their defense in there and the way they own things in the way they capture things, the way they own people's lives and have their life owned by other people. All that is, is a very difficult space for us all to be in. We can't break free of this defensive place we find ourselves in. But to, to acknowledge the fool is to acknowledge the unknown, and that's outside the realm of the king and the queen, outside their domain, outside their, you know, the country which they're trying to have, own, be with be assimilated with, to be reckoned with, and in that you also have a kind of court where your friends are This can be your inner world and your outer world. So it's the discovery of these places. So I'm not sure if I'm actually telling you who I am. I wanted to, just get across a bit about what you are like and what you do. And I think that was perfect. Perfect. So thank you. Right. Okay. So you tell me when to stop with my finger and that'll be the cards that I Where's your finger? Oh, they're like this. Okay. Stop. There we go. Something like that. Yes. Yes. So we have here, lovely card. It's love. Aha. It's a nice card. It's a pretty card, isn't it? Two, two cups filling each other. Aha. Very nice. And you want me to sort of speak about that or something? Yeah. What does love mean to you? What is love? What is love? Anyway. the thing is, everything is love. Absolutely. Absolutely. even ourselves, even myself, even all ourselves. It's just that we twist and turn as if love wasn't good enough or enough. So we try to make, see whether people actually do love us or that's egotistically. But the way in which the stars Move and the sun and the planets move around themselves They are in perpetual motion and that perpetual motion is love itself so love enables everything to move and everything moves within everything else and We are doing that as well. It's just that we've tied ourselves upside down we've done strange things to ourselves as if We ourselves can't join in with all that. It must be questioned or must be thought of and moved away from and tested in ourselves to see whether in fact these things are so. The unfortunate thing is there's nobody answering any question that we give ourselves, except for our own self. So I would say love is not asking questions and not answering anything. Since, in between the question and the answer, there is a vast nothing which love inhabits. I say inhabits, but it's, it's, it's not, it's not something which is like on this card, you see the twins, they have two, so you're both these things, both sides. One pours into the other and the other pours into the other at the same time cancelling out everything Enabling us to see that we cannot weigh up. What love is we can I mean we can try to do these kinds of things but it to to accept to for me to place myself in such a fashion that I am part of everything and I do not question whether I am part of it or not because I don't have to question that, kind of I wish, but love doesn't need questioning. So there's not an acceptance like intellectual acceptance, but a reflection that everything is love. It's just that I haven't caught up with it, and I haven't seen properly how everything is such. I don't know. I'm beginning, and each time I begin, I say to people, please don't ask a question, and please don't try and answer the question that you're asking yourself. And don't try, if possible, to say you could do this, and you might do this, and I ought to do this, and I should do this. These are all split, split, they split me. So if I don't ask questions, like what is love, or answer it, love is the planets moving around themselves, I exclude myself from this movement. So without speaking and without really engaging such questions and possibilities and speculations, I know that speculation isn't imagination. If I have to, if I have to say the difference between imagination and speculation. And then imagination was there a long time before speculation. And I was, when I was young and accepted everything and enjoyed myself and screamed and walked and jumped and did stuff. It was when somebody said, why are you doing that? Or what's the purpose of that? And then I had to start to think, I don't know. And then I had to sort of wonder. What is that? I cannot answer that. I am just running. I am just talking. I am, what would you want me to do? Well, you are ignorant. And then all sorts of other shame and inadequacy starts to bubble up in me. And that, all that bubbling up and so on is born of speculation and imagination. is the whole of it at once. Everything that ever is, is imagination. So, when I say to myself, be in the present, then I realize that the present is the, is not even fast. It's, it's just amazing. One, if there was one end and the other end of the universe, now, it's spontaneously everywhere at once. So, there is no light moving, there is no, love itself is a now thing, it's everywhere and all the time. Hold this and then those two cups are filled on the card, and I hold the card, which is different than looking at the card. So they come together as one thing in me, when I allow it to. Otherwise it's split and made into two again. But this is the twin effect, which is in everywhere. Twin is not two individual humans, but my relationship with everything around me, me and you. It, it being the other cup, is the holy grail which is never seen, but fills when I am still. And then the love comes. Is, love is, love is, love is, love is, ising. Yay, that's beautiful. the twin effect. And then you pour so much, It's, it's an ongoing game, isn't it? Yes. Visions and dreams and ideas into this twin, giving it all the energy. Yeah, I got married this year, didn't I? Yes, you did. You did get married. It's not that you haven't been married before, before. You're not having another go at it, you're just looking at, looking at the whole thing again. I still love my last husband and I love everyone that I've ever been in love with. I've never stopped loving them. I love everyone. I know as well, even my enemies. There we are. Well, well done. something you taught me. And that was something that's so important with loving your enemies. Yes. Yes. Is everything that you have to love everyone because your enemy is just someone that you're giving the twin to. And you're pouring all that energy into it, and you're learning from it. You're having some kind of relationship with it. Yes. Yes. But it's not real. None of it's real. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. this podcast, then please consider signing up to my Patrion account. Patrion forward slash Jolie rose, J O L I E R O S E. This is a full-time thing for me to be doing. It takes a lot of time and energy for me to create the podcast. And I want to be able to give them away for free. And also offer moon ceremonies, every dark and forming, which are also for free. You just have to join the zoom link can take part. And I also create video blogs, but are every week or fortnight. That I share on my YouTube channel, which is Luna coven. I live on this tiny little island and I'm in the middle of nowhere and it's actually really hard to. Make a living as an artist here. Because this is a brilliant opportunity and a creative way for me to make a living. But I do need the support of those who can afford it. If you can't afford it, it's fine because the contents free and you can just enjoy it. 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But as is the way with these things, the universe, the chaos, the nonsense, it was all on purpose because although he gave us some amazing answers and I What then happened when we did a second recording, a couple of days later was I discovered a whole bunch of stuff that really linked to the podcast that I did with Macomb. Clifton. And beam town. And, we up not putting a second card because he started talking about land temples, and I was just like, this definitely needs to go in because it's so linked to what happened before in the second podcast. And so we then decided that that's the ACE of cups because he's talking about a bowl. And then we get the third card. So back to Jonathan and I hope you enjoy this second attempt to the recording. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. you going to do another pilgrimage? Yeah, I'm doing one to Boomtown this year. I'm opening Boomtown, Jonathan. Are you? Yeah, which is fucking terrifying. Is You're talking to the person who got the license for Boomtown. Oh, did you? Yeah. Boomtown. Boomtown. That's amazing. I didn't, wow. Yeah. It wasn't boomtown. I was going to, I was going to extend the hat fair. So, there was a whole story When you stand in the bowl there, behind you, the main bowl is facing south towards where you're coming from, up from Southampton. And north, you'll see us, if you look, there's a snake there, and it goes, the Kundalini goes into the ground. If you see one side of the punch bowl is higher than the other, then it moves around and goes deep into the earth. And this process, was, right back in, you're talking about lots and lots of years. Where there were landscape, mainly landscape temples dotted across the countryside, so people weren't living in villages. In that sense, they were clustered around, these landscape temples and the landscape temples, all interconnected with each other. So they were very much more involved with the cycle of, what we call midsummer and things like that. people would have fun. More naturally involved with the landscape, because they came out of the landscape and, there wasn't any industry, of course, and there wasn't any farming. And we're going back a long way. when the body, our bodies were much lighter, that means not lighter as in heavy and light, What happened was, now we're much heavier, so we make things like, dams and we dam up to have water. So we find water very, very important But in those times, they didn't collect water. They collect. Chi energy. So, different times of the year had different flows. So, Cheesefoot Head, or the place where Boomtown is, they would, all be in the, Boomtown area. certain times of the year, there would be, a big rush of energy that came out of the, Landscape, which was then redirected along, the landscape temples, and they understood how to, be with this energy. There wasn't anybody king and queen, but there was much more celebration, these times of the year, different places collected, At different times, so they would not wander, but they almost didn't eat physical food. they were able to, because they had a lighter body, they were able to, just enhance their life with this energy that was naturally coming out of the earth. we're much heavier now. We're far heavier in terms of our outlook. You know, we built heavy things like rockets and cars and so on, and they weren't doing anything like that. They didn't have that heavy aspect, and they lived in their body quite differently, and their body was, the spirit in the body was, far more, you could get out of your body quite easily like we go to sleep, it is possible to travel quite easily. not physically like flying through the air or anything like that in your intention. So you were able to. think yourself over there, so you need to see that the process of thought, like you're talking about imagination. Imagination, like I keep on saying to people, imagination isn't speculation. Speculation is the, underminer of imagination. it makes the individual, separate. And then it makes them defensive and then makes them aggressive. So speculation is a, major problem. Whereas imagination is what's going on, and the interaction between all the different levels which are naturally happening. And when we we're in this state, we were far more involved in that. So we, we weren't speculating. We, we weren't speculating in this sense of, We were joining in and seeing that trees and rivers and everything has its own energy. But its own energy is not right. It flows in the big energy. And the big energy is knocking about all the time. And we then started to speculate and then started to manipulate this energy. And out of that, we got heavier and heavier and heavier. Over the thousands of years until we, we come to a point where, we're dimmed and we cannot, we can't see like we did then, it was possible to see the landscape temple that Boomtown is involved in. It was possible to see that from outer space. And so people would, be helping these energy, it was a relationship like music, like, being able to orchestrate. Like we have notes and so on like this. Imagine you can do this with this energy. you can start to, the equivalent of make it orchestral. It was possible with light and. relationship and, and with love. but because we're split from the landscape and we're split from these things, it isolates us. And because it isolates us, we then look around and, We're lost, but the gradual return is not the return of, it's the return of being able to understand that we are already in imagination, and you were saying that a little bit, by allowing it, by the quality of imagination to stop being in individual's heads and individual's and, all this stuff, which is. It's actually milking this energy without realizing it to return, to return to the, not to the landscape, but to the imagination. I mean, when the, what happened is that it's kind of a big dark age Then you get individuality and you get the spirit of, the spirit of love being divided up amongst different things and different qualities, so people kind of felt they owned love when it wasn't anything that you owned. You didn't share it either. You were, you were in, you were in love, so to speak. So all this process and the big landscape temples that, you know, Boomtown is in. what I wanted to do was, just start regenerate. So William de Conquer was a very, he subjugated the, land a lot. You know, all these natural, flowing nesses that happened in Celtic kind of residue of the Celtic time But even going back further than that, the Romans came and they found all this going on in a separate kind of way. So there weren't any towns or, villages and they found it very hard to, Conquer these islands because everybody was just scattered all over the place. So they herded everybody into groups so that they built towns and put them in them, so to speak. So they were to subjugate. So it went from round houses to square houses, and square houses are more intellectual, So it's the beginning, the kind of Roman thing is that it starts to be logic and it starts to have It's just all within itself political qualities and so on. So you have a ley line that now you put a road on it and then, and then, you know, later on you put a church on the sacred site, you know, so it's all gets heavier and, owned, ownershipped, but he was a very, aggressive, king and very, I know doomsday book is, It's nothing to do with doom, but, you know, from our point of view, it was the point of view where everything was consolidated, you know, what was going on in the place, you know, things were tied down, then you had to pay tax, taxes and stuff, and you became literalized. So it was doom in terms of this, continuing, heaviness. These islands are much more like Atlantis, you know, the, on the borders of Atlantis so they've got this whole energy moving from previous times and the people who are from that previous time. So you're getting to the heaviest time when. you get subjugated, you know, right up to now, where, people have discovered every flower is called a name and it's all science and so on. All that's happened in that thousand years. So lots of people kicked out, lots of indigenous people subjugated and, their children are forced into another way of education, very heavy, you've got to be like this. So, the quality for me was to I would have brought in all the indigenous people that were kicked out, and asked them, and brought them back to that landscape temple. And them working together in some way. so they would be there a month just being in that bowl and, re regenerating the, sort of archetypal qualities, re re reinvesting in the energies that are in the. In that boat, and in the whole landscape temple, and have the hat fair. So everybody from the town, walking up along the ley lines, to come to that space, this would be a yearly thing, and people from all over the world would come to this spot, it was, it wouldn't be like Glastonbury, it would be like a really, Reconnection with people. it started in that very bowl. it feels like that's permeated into Boomtown and what they're doing, but without them knowing any of that. Yeah, the people who organize it are very. switched on and are they've done a lot of work on healing in themselves and have come from dark backgrounds, and then they've, created this unbelievably artistic offering I was blown away by it, last year because it is, renowned for being a hedonistic festival It's one of the more crazy ones, but then they're being held in this space that's artistic and thoughtful. So yeah, and it's so interesting about the energy because that's exactly what we felt and we were there. It felt we could feel the Ellen line being pulled into this space. Yeah. And it just felt like it was so present. And then it was saying Ellen everywhere and there was the end ceremony and it was so much stuff that you've taught with the twin and the inner and outer and just watching it all visually on the screen, and then all the fireworks going off and it was just. It was incredible. So something of what you were dreaming has happened. What's created there, it feels like and I know that people who weren't there would be amazed to hear what you've just said. Wow, that's what we've been doing. So that's the actual bowl is the actual bowl is handmade. All right. Wow. I mean, it's so it's so big. Yeah, you wouldn't have thought it was made, but it's, it's, It's actually very directional, the hills, if you stand, you'll see the snake, you'll see the hill going like this, just as you look up towards going up north. So you've got this whole, this whole thing, collecting in this place and the great dance of coming down, I mean you have to see this, the way in which the hills are built. But Oxford, Oxford and Winchester, are part of a, a larger, There's a lay line that goes all the way up here, and then there's one from Oxford, London, and Canterbury. So you've got this big rose shaped, four petal rose on the landscape and from the law or the capital city of of these islands goes from Winchester to London to Colchester. So Colchester used to be the capital. London used to be. It's still, and when William the Conqueror came, the capital was in Winchester, and he created the Tower of London and opened up that, temple that runs from Maidenhead and, you know, to, Hampton Court. So there's another landscape temple there, which, was made into the Capitol when, William the Conqueror took it There's a law line that runs up to Colchester and a creative line that runs Oxford, London, Canterbury. So Canterbury used to be a great, university city, even within sort of 13th century. Then Winchester College, Is, is made when you went up St. Catharines Hill, between St. Catharines Hill and St. Giles Hill, you have, Winchester College and behind that Sleepers Hill. So you have, people around the country, people around the church, people who, become Prime Ministers, like Shoenak, whatever his name was. He went to Winchester College and so it These people are educated between these two hills. And then they go to Oxford, My, my feeling during the hat fair was to change it from it being a very solid law abiding, rigid Law aspect to, to try to wake it up and have more lightness and more, the streets to be lighter and, and to have better, invigoration, let's say, and, and, and move it together and, and that then take those, those people once a year up, up to boom town. So I was trying to connect the hat fair with this new energy, which, you know, can be done. It took a lot to get that, license. it was really interesting how we got the license to have a festival there. Because everybody was against it. I mean, it was just not. Anybody wanting it, but there was a few counselors and we had this amazing barrister and he just, was able to, you know, we got everybody against it, the city was against it, the, commander of, I don't know what his name is, but there's sort of, chief, person of the county, all these people who are connected with all the old hierarchy. And he blew them away. It was just amazing. You know, he says you can't stop having a license unless there's some critical. reason why the license can't be put forward, And so the license got through. It's just amazing. so that was an amazing kind of thing that happened, totally against all the conservative landowners, everything, in the whole countryside around Hampshire, what on earth were you doing, allowing this thing to arrive? You know, I mean, totally, it was just totally amazing. The person who ran the Isle of Wight festival, he was involved with trying to run this festival here, but he chickened out, and we didn't do the festival, We had the license and the farmer has the license. So the farmer, you know, he was very pleased that we got the license. And, what happened to me was that I moved down to Glastonbury and so on. So it all sort of, dissipated but really good. I mean, I, I know it's nothing to do with individuals. It's to do with, the thing, waking up but what was so good was the fact that the impossible thing happened, which was to get a license in the most conservative, you know, almost impossible to do this license thing. What on earth were you doing? You know, it just sailed through. It was just amazing. I mean, everybody was speechless. The police, the county council, everybody was against it, and yet, it happened, you know. He said, the solicitor said, well, you got that, now it's up to you to do something with it. Wow. It was an amazing time. I mean, it was just a few of us doing it, you know, It's interesting that it was with the Isle of Wight as well, because that's where the line comes from. So, yes, it is amazing, isn't it? Yeah. The other thing that's amazing is the only other person that I've interviewed on this podcast was Megan Clifton, who's the person who writes the narrative now for Boomtown. So when you're listening to these podcasts, it's going to go her doing the narrative, and then you explaining the license. And that was by complete coincidence, which is just brilliant. I love it. It's, it's doing its own storytelling, which is wonderful. Yes. let's just say that that was you pulling the Ace of Cups, so the bowl. All right. That feels like that was the Ace of Cups card. That's absolutely amazing. What a piece of magic that was. So if you just tell me to stop and I'll pull a card and then that will be. Okay. Stop. The Knight of Disks. And he looks like he's, going off, but he's looking to the past or, I don't know, whatever you feel like he's doing. He's on a horse with a shield and he's looking for sunrise or a sunset. Yes, I see. Well, I, I, I imagine a sense of, protection and holding of the mysteries and holding of the different qualities within the unwritten world. And, making sure that, new aspects, new never means new really, new just means re discovered as, you know, there's not really anything new going on anywhere, other than we come closer to something that was always going on, so something pulls in our hearts. To re engage with something, the most in the things that we have moved away from this conscious quality where we, we've gone through all this questioning and we've gone through, you know, tearing it to pieces, so to speak, and re engaging our consciousness in a new way. we now individually have to, create our own direction and our consciousness is opened individually. So we're not so collective as we were, and this is now a stronger return of, reawakening the night is a kind of, holding of those aspects in a treasured place with armor and so on. when you live on the outside, when you are excluded from all this stuff. That is spiritually encased, let's say, by I mean, we, we, we, we are, we are asleep. So our problem is Is that because of our sleepness, we are so, so alistic we, we are walking in a, in a place of, of disjointedness and, but where we were awake before, we never questioned what was going on. And then slowly the opposition, opposition arrived and that the twin effect, the twin aspect so the knight has a spear and this is going through to Shakespeare, the, that we have to really see. We have to really begin as our own individual journey of the awaking of the intellect and we need to do things intelligently. So intelligently means it's spelled Intel. I gently. So intelligently, when you do something intelligently, then it's not, it's not with a rough spear and so on. The spear becomes very delicate and it becomes very not scientific at all, but it's it's really questioning. Where you place your not to with aggression. So intelligently means something well, well considered you know, you're not just arguing you're not, you're listening. You're. You're weighing up things, you're, you're having to find yourself in this fog of, of deception. So you don't know whether you're holding a spear that's going to enlighten you or whether it's going to, you know, this, pure hearted quality of, that we have in this world of William Shakespeare. This knight, these knights and we have knights at the round table, we have We have people holding certain qualities, earth, earthly qualities that are, that are now being, starting to be awake, awoken, awakened. And in this awakening, it has to be really carefully. Made between fantasy, between objectivity, between something that is, that is, has a reality. So, It's not being a deception, we're not just doing something which is just going to land us up in a fanciful world of delusion, but this quality, so the, the, the spear and the shaking of the spear and the, the finding of the language and the, the opening of the language and the sunrise that the night is, is, is almost crouching down. Thank you Ready for the sun to arise and for us to begin it's such a difficult thing without being gentle and kind. Nothing is of any real purpose. So this kindness and this gentleness to each other and to the landscape and to all around us, it's not a pseudo gentleness. It's not a sort of right on thing. It's a process, how a tree grows, where it takes root. It's us who think the tree is in the wrong place. It's us who feel that It's getting too big and that we must cut it down to size. These aren't gentle things, but we seem to look at nature as if it needs to be of contained and put in avenues and and it does create energy flows. And these energies something which intellectually we are coming back towards, are telling ourselves gently these things. And as we tell them, then the, the world will start to, I mean, we're such in that kind of as, as the opposite, as we try to waken up. It's worse, the opposition is always trying to make more deceptions, more, more to see. And so you have to struggle more to see whether you're able to do this. If you have. A big opposition then is because you are starting to wake, and if you're starting to wake will the opposition wake you up or will you start to defend yourself against truth? Will you, will you defend yourself and go in, in a wart way, in, in, in a way against everything believing that it, it is, right? So Shakespeare is. is a very important aspect will the knights of the, we have knights. These knights are, well, in, in English language, we have K N I G H T as opposed to N I G H T. And there are people who look into the knight because K is made up of I and C, so a knight is someone who sees into knight. And knows how to look at in night and shake their spear into then what appears to be night, not just physical night, but night of, ignorance, night of not being able to understand. So join these two things together. So understand. And being understood, both of being, we are trying to find understanding everywhere, but until somebody feels understood, that means supported, and people being able to hear what it is, and their heart opens, and that heart opens, so you can hear what the other heart is saying, and you can, in understanding, you can come together, but Understanding is of no importance until you feel understood, and when you understood, then you're standing on the ground, standing with other people, you're not, you're not you're not defending yourself. Yeah. You, you are beginning to do it intelligently, which is telling ourselves gently what is already there. And you've got the Knights of the Round Table in Winchester, haven't you? That's the Round Table. Yes. Yes. In Sleepers Hill. In the, in Sleepers Hill the, between these two hills, that is Sleepers Hill. This sleeping thing, this sleeping aspect and the nights that are sleeping, they're not in the dark, they're, they're sleeping, ready to awake. And this is us, you know, all, all, all of us, we are ready to awake from the sleep of that we, we can begin to see clearly with our eyes and see that love is Is actually everywhere, but, to lift, to lift the scales from our own eyes. So we have a word like realize, so we use our realize as opposed to we start to see what's going on, whereas the other intellectual eyes, we can only think what we see, but now we need to see, begin to see, look, see, be, fly, and understand that, that everywhere has It's secrets, it's sacred, it's scared, it's scarred. These are the opposition in us, but on the other hand, they are the key to opening our hearts to each other. Wonderful. Thank you. And then the last thing was, the chaos crusade. So something people can do in their everyday lives that will stop them being lost in this dream and just suddenly, yeah, be a bit more in the moment. Well, chaos. I don't know who establishes chaos or what chaos is, but chaos is prevalent. Everywhere. And yet on the other hand, chaos is something not understood. Our understanding searches into chaos. What we thought was chaos is, has some structure in it. And as we see the structure, we, we, we've that chaos is, has no structure. Has no real meaning to it, it, it, it's meaning comes to a certain point and then it gets chaotic and then it's a misunderstand, we don't understand why this has happened, what's happened, it's just chaos, it's coming, but it's, it's a kind of understanding that's not understood, it, why do we fight each other, why do we have wars, why, why do we do what's going on in, Jerusalem and these other places, what, what, what is, what is happening? Is it really chaos or is it something that we aren't really looking at with a wide enough vision? As we look in a wider and wider vision we can see We can't just stop, believing at a certain point. We can't stop just ending, oh, then it's chaos, it's beyond the pale beyond there is nothing. The, the quality of the fool is that you jump off the cliff, but don't create the bottom. you're not going to fall. You're falling because you're falling into ignorance. But is ignorance something that you're ignoring, that you're falling through chaos, or are you in time and timelessness, are you beginning to see these things for the first time, when we get a telescope up in space and we look and we see and we look at the stars and we look at what is the energy that holds all this together in perpetual motion. Everything moving around, everything else, there isn't chaos, it's all, interwoven, it's all perpetual motion, and perpetual motion is love itself, how it all intermingles and how we intermingle in that apparent chaos. Are we on a planet lost in space? is everywhere in space, and now is love. If there was one end the space to the other, which is, which isn't so, then now exists all the way through every part and every cell and every part in our bodies, everywhere in space, now happens. And this is not, like light or sound. Now is the perception, and it It begins without end and it ends without beginning. we need to begin to see how we're a part of that, an amazing, we join in with all this, you know, movement of wind, the movement of the stars, the movement, it's all, it's all love. It's our misunderstanding that causes chaos. Beautiful. The chaos crusade is to. Feel the love. Oh, thank you. I love you, Jonathan. That was wonderful. Thank you so much. Okay. Love you. Take care. I don't know what I'm doing with my life. So that was Jonathan K. I dare friend, my spiritual guru, my theater teacher. He is such a special soul and I'm really honored to have been part of his life for so long and to. I have had this opportunity to capture some of his wisdom. And utter magic. So thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed that. I enjoyed it. I have. Every second. I. I spent with Jonathan feels like an eternity and. It's just a treasure. The present is a present and being with him is one of the best presents of all. Say, thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, dear listener. And I'll speak to you again another time. See the non. Yeah. Cheers! Have a great day. Cheers! I don't know.